Welcome to the art of marketing operations, a Taylor podcast. I'm Glenn Bottomley
and today my guest is Chelsea John's, director of marketing at Swoon, a
beverage company which offers tasty, deliciously healthy, zero sugar drink alternatives so that
you can live a healthy lifestyle. Thanks for joining me today, Chelsea.
Thanks for having me well, Chelsea. Now you have worked in marketing and
brand management now for more than twelve years. Where did your passion for marketing
come from? Yeah, so, for for me marketing always seemed like sort
of the intersection at business um of all things that are fun and relating to
business. You got to plan events, you got to work on work with
athletes and celebrities, you've got to have ads, you know, work on
outs and magazines or maybe billboards, product placement and movies. It just seemed
like all of the fun things that you could do in business all surrounded market
ng Um. So I really love that. But I think what surprised me
as I grew further into my marketing career is that, uh, there was
an aspect of sort of anthropology and psychology in a sense, around marketing.
You kind of got to understand consumer behaviors, consumer attitudes around Um, your
products, and you know how they interacted with their products and their lives,
and I thought that was really interesting. And then, you know, there's
so many ways to analyze the data now and that was something that early in
my marketing career I didn't do at all. But it's actually something that's that's
really interesting to me now. Is Um, you know, looking at the
data and seeing what drives Um, you know, consumer purchase behaviors and brand
affinity and things like that. So, yeah, what drives? What drives
the result? What's the activity that that that's doing that? Yeah, I
agree. I every single day in marketing is different and I love that.
It's so dynamic. Uh, it's it's for an inquisitive person, it's a
it's a great a great place to be. So that's that's great. So
well, let's dive right into it. So what is swoon? Yeah,
so swoon is Um a zero sugar beverage. We started with a sugar free
simple syrup and then we recently, about a year and a half ago,
launched I'm ready to drink. So it's sort of your classics made better.
So Classic Lemonade Pink Lemonade. Things that you enjoyed growing up but that we're
just jam packed with sugar, are now offered naturally zero sugar, sweeten with
monk fruit. Um. One of the founders was a type one, or
is a type one diabetic, and so she, along with the other CO
founder, founded this brand because we didn't, you know, they didn't want
to give up having great drinks for themselves or for them for their kids and,
Um, you know, having to sacrifice, you know, great drinks
for the sake of having a healthier lifestyle. So that is what swoon is.
We've recently launched a new product that sort of delves into the functional beverage
space, Um, in terms of, uh, the energy drink space.
It's a Macha lemonade. Um. So it's a collaborative product with Chamberlain coffee
and ourselves, and it's ready to drink much of lemonade. It's doing really,
really well for us. So how exciting? Uh. Well, so
I would imagine that you have had to work pretty hard at, you know,
changing customers perceptions of the core product. Uh. You know, it's
obviously more than just saying you're different, right. So how how do you
actually go about actually changing perceptions. Yeah, so I think these days,
you know, people are bombarded with advertising, whether it's Um, you know,
on television or on digital channels or things like that. So just telling
them to your point that something is different or better is it's really hard to
get through. Um. So that's why, for for me, Um,
influencer marketing is really so, so core. Um, two brands and what
they do these days. Um, you know, influencers already have a core
set of, you know, can not consumers, I guess, followers that
are following them for because they really believe in what their Um likes and dislikes
are, and it just feels a lot more genuine. Um. So I
think influencers these days are sort of like word of mouth on steroids. You
know, we're nothing, you know, feels more authentic than your neighbor or
your friend or your family member telling you how much they love a certain product.
That being said, as a new brand, there's only so many people
who have tried your product and can then, you know, tell your product
to their friends. So, you know, influencers is sort of that to
the next level. They're they're authentically telling people, UM, what they love
about your product, and I think it's also just really important as a brand
to work with influencers who genuinely do like your product, because those are usually
the influencers that that work better, are ones that have to wait and try
your product and then we'll tell you if they want to work with you or
not, because I think even when it comes to influencers audiences, they can
consumers can tell in authenticity. Um. So we wanted to really come across
as authentic as possible, genuine like of the product and a real genuine experience.
Um, I would. So I would say, you know, obviously
a big fan of Um influencer, but I think also, you know,
PR is a great way to get, you know, awareness to consumers.
That feels more authentic. You know, hearing from a trusted news outlet that
they love your product, that that news all, the author loves your product
feels, you know, a bit more authentic than a digital ad or or
a print ad and then, Um, you know, I think just you're
really getting your product in front of people and letting them try it, because
there's nothing that's going to convert someone better to your product than them actually trying
and loving it. So that that's that's wonderful. I love how you phrase
it and I definitely want to be digging in on the influencer marketing. Before
we get there, though, let's talk a little bit about the product.
Um. You've done a great job explaining that. Um. And let's talk
about the broader sort of, you know, customer experience. Uh. And
so, as you've described, as a customers perception of a product starts to
shift. Uh. Then there's the actual experience with the product. So are
there sort of key components that you've found over the years, key components of
a customer experience that you know you really have to nail? You get to
really get those down just right. Yeah, I would say for CPG brands
in particular, Um, you know, consumer consumer package guids brands in particular,
most of the sort of initial discovery of the product is still happening in
stores and on shelf. So you know well. I think most brands these
days are trying to be digital first and get in front of consumers before they
hit the stores. A lot of times your first point in contact with the
consumer is in the store. So you know, first and foremost you have
beautle packaging and you need to be telling the consumer what the benefits are really
clearly on the packaging. That might be their first and only experience in touch
point with the brand. So I think obviously nailing the packaging is super important,
um, you know. secondarily, like once they do buy the product,
hopefully they try it and love it, and so there's nothing better than
a consumer having a great experience with with the product. That being said,
I would say the the third thing that is often overlooked is the, you
know, consumer connections, the customer service side of things. So, you
know, it's it's inevitable that some consumers will have a bad experience with a
product. For one reason or another, they've there's a damage can or maybe
it tastes a little off to them or for whatever reason they don't they have
a less than ideal experience, and I think that's sort of the crossroads for
a brand is you can either lose a customer forever or you can convert them
into a real brand loyalists, and I think having super strong customers service Um,
can really turn people from, you know, walking away from the brand
to really loving the brand. So while I think all of the marketing touch
points Um in terms of growing awareness they're super important. I think, you
know, packaging, product and customer service are really core brand. That's a
great that's a great way to to to phrase that. Just as a side
note, I had this past winter in in Minnesota. Of course it gets
very, very cold here, and I had ordered, Um, some uh,
water that just came to my came to my home. But to your
point, the exact scenario you mentioned. The package arrived and three of the
cans had burst open and and it was, you know, no fault of
shipping everything. It was literally it was just weather that had had, you
know, bustered those opens. So I I contacted them and you're exactly right,
it was within seconds. They immediately credited the account. They did this,
they did that, you know. So to your point, that customer
experience, uh, you know, let alone the packaging, the product itself,
that tastes, flavor, etcetera. Um, but, you know,
really responsive customer service. That did make a difference, you know, for
me. So I appreciate your highly in those three are you struggling to find
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at Taylor dot com. So for B Two C marketing teams today, what
do you think right now is the most important marketing channel? Yeah, I
mean, I think it just really depends on your consumer and so I think
that's generally when I start with a new brand, especially startups, Um,
there's a lot less consumer insights than when you're working at really big brands.
So the first thing I try to do is do some customer surveys and really
understand where is the consumer sort of living, learning and buying. So you
know from from that standpoint. Um, if I mean there's so much you
can learn from from a consumer, from a consumer survey, you know,
for example, if you know that your target consumer wakes up and, say,
reads a news digest like the Skim and then they hop on instagram and
they scroll through Instagram for your fifteen minutes and then they roll over to the
gym. Um, you've already in the first few hours of the day,
found three ways that you can market to them. You can, you know,
advertise in the news digest, you can advertise to them on instagram via
paid out or an influencer, and you can sample product at their local gym.
So I think the consumer insight is is super important. Um, you
know, for for me, in the last couple of brands that I've worked
on, Um, we've been really Gen z focused and so, you know,
platforms like Tiktok have been really important because consumers spend a lot of time
their consumers really get sucked in and consume, you know, hours upon hours
on a platform like TIKTOK. That being said, Um, if you're a
product that, you know, I guess markets to maybe an older crowd like
my mom or something like that. She does not have the TIKTOK APP and
doesn't follow Instagram, you know, influencers even on Instagram, so I probably
have to reach her either, you know, maybe on facebook. She does
spend some time on facebook, or just instore, instore promotions and things like
that. So you really have to to shift your your focus and your efforts
based on where your consumer is showing up on a daily basis. Great Advice.
Uh and TICKTO. You mentioned Tiktok. The fascinating thing I think about
Tiktok is, you know, sort of the predecessor. I remember vine.
You know a lot of the fun vine videos that you would see, but
it always seems very self contained. But tiktok seems to be so ubiquitous.
It's you see Tiktok on Youtube, you see Tiktok on pay you know,
it's sort of as sort of transcended media. Uh, it's it's really quite
fascinating to just see the brands that are embracing it and you know how everybody
is just embracing Um, sort of the experience that Tiktok and brain. That's
that. I'm assuming that has been your experience as well. Yes, yes,
absolutely. I mean it's become a real major competitor to to Meta.
I guess it would just saying call now into Um, you know, instagram
and facebook, because people just spend so much time there. And Yeah,
to your point, you see people feeling content on Tiktok and then like re
uploading into a platform like instagram. Yes, Um, so, yeah,
it is everywhere. Exactly, exactly, so so let's shift now to or,
you know, act to what you were chatting about. So I wanted
to cover a bit on the product there. But let's now go to the
marketing side, because you really have a specialty in this area and that is
influencer marketing. Uh. So why do you think that influencer marketing has become
just so popular, uh, as a part of the marketing mix today?
Yeah, I think it's because, I mean, I think it's two fold.
Like, influencers have become popular because they create great content. So,
you know, sometimes we call them influencers, sometimes we call them content creators,
Um, but really they, you know, obviously inherently create content that
people like to watch, UM, which is why they've become some popular of
their own accord. Um. I think it from a brand standpoint, it's
it saves, I guess, a brand time and money in some senses,
because if we're going to try to create an ad, we're going to have
to, you know, still pay an actor or an agency or or things
like that to create, you know, a beautiful photograph, Um, a
really fun and engaging videos. So if we're going to not only get that
content but also get those followers, those genuine followers. At the same time,
uh, it makes a lot of sense to, you know, go
go with the influencer a route. Um, you know, I think people
have been so bombarded with advertising in general it's it's sort of people's I guess,
have it to just skim through the advertisement anyway. I mean, I
don't know how many times I've watched a youtube video and I am just counting
the seconds to skip the ad because it's not something that I am like,
that is relevant to it. To me it's not something I want to hear
about. I'm like wait, three to one ski. So I think,
I think from that sense it's like you're not you're following an influencer because you're
interested in what they have to say. So you're not going you're going to
them to be engaged with their content and watch the video from start to and
ish or like their photo and comment on it because you're you're genuinely like the
person and you genuinely like what they have to say. So, Um,
it's just so much more authentic than than it was before. That being said,
I mean there are a lot of influencers who who do a lot of
paid partnerships and you know, have Hashtag paid and Hashtag partner, and I
think even those, you know, tend to have less engagement and less conversion
capabilities, which is why it's really great to work with influencers on an ongoing
basis to have them try the product in advance to make sure they genuinely like
it, because I think then it's like maybe you do your first post and
it's on in a paid capacity, but then they actually become a genuine brand
fan and they'll they'll start posting about it organically and their followers are realized,
Oh, this person does actually genuinely like this product, and it's you know,
it's they're not just doing it because they're getting paid. Everybody knows that
the influencers are getting paid these days for this, but to the same extent
they understand that a lot of these influencers do genuinely like the products. So
it does still have influence on people. And I think also when it comes
to, like, you know, influencers versus celebrities. Like you know,
influencers have so many followers they essentially are celebrities. You know, some of
them we call celebrity influencers at this point, and vice versa. You know,
Um, celebrities that are in you know, models or actors or things
like that. They in a sense also are influencers. But I think the
difference with celebrities, we found is that it people aren't really coming to that
like that. People are coming to them because they're interested in what they're doing
in their life. That's really cool. You know, the new music video,
the new movie, things like that, but with influencers they just want
to know what they're doing on a day to day basis. What products are
they using, what are they eating, what are they drinking to be fit
or things like that. So it's actually you could probably find a lot more
success working with the influencer that has a few hundred thousand followers than working with
a celebrity that has a several million followers. That being said, you know
the Kardashians. Aside, I think that they convert on everything they touch.
But so so we've found success. No, that's good. So so,
imagine you were consulting with a company and that company was trying to determine,
uh, should I utilize influencer marketing as as a go to market approach?
All right, have you found are there sort of signals or characteristics for either
a product or for the company, where you would say, yes, I
feel that utilizing influencer marketing would be very good for you as part of your
marketing mix, versus another brand or company or product, where you would say,
I don't know, I don't know if influencer marketing would be as effective
for you. Is there, UH, any characteristics that would point you one
way or the other? Yeah, I mean, I think. Well,
first and foremost is like the sort of age demographic of the your target consumer.
Um, younger demographics tend to skew more heavily towards influencer marketing and converting
on influencer marketing and being influenced by influencer marketing versus, you know, older
demographics. Even myself, being an older millennial, I don't follow a lot
of influencers, outside of the fact that now I do because, you know,
because of my yeah, but I'm not. I'm usually following influencers that
I want to work with, but I'm not, you know, it's just
not not what I grew up doing and and I'm still not often doing it.
So I think if you're getting to my age demographic and older in general,
probably influencer marketing shouldn't be your first Um, you know, foray and
into a certain channel. Um. That being said, there are a lot
of people of all age demographics that that are following influencers on Um, on
social media channels. But I think, you know, it goes back to
WHO's your who's your core consumer, and are they you know, are they
converting office? So I'll do survey sometimes where I'm like, what is the
last product you bought online and what can you know what compelled you to buy
it? WAS IT AN AD? Was it was it a facebook ad?
Was it a tektok AD? Was it was an influencer? So I think
going Um, back to what your consumers lifestyle is, Um also, I
mean obviously you have to have a strong online presence. Um, you have
to be a product that you know, I think the more widespread you are,
I mean if you're you know, for example, if you're like a
local product that is only available in a certain state, working with a macro
influencer who's, you know, reaching people across the nation wouldn't make sense just
from a cost perspective, because you're paying for that reach. But most of
that reach is not going to be relevant for your product. So I think
you have to sort of have a certain level of national distribution or be available
to purchase online nationally, Um. And and then also, of course,
find influencers that skew towards your geographies. So, you know, in this
day and age, there there could you know, there's influencers everywhere and there's
influencers that reach out to want to work, you know, with us,
but they'll be based in Canada and we don't sell in Canada, for example,
or things like that. So you have to of course take into account
where you're going to be reaching consumers when you work with influencers. Um.
So I would say those are the two, you know, biggest factors.
Is Um. And then also, I mean you, I think it's really
important to have a way to measure the effectiveness of influencers. The metric that
I go by as e M V, or earned media value. Um.
So there are certain Um software platforms, such as tribe dynamics, where you
can track your influencers how engaged their posts were, um, and how many
times they've posted about you. So it kind of helps you see like,
okay, this influencer posted about us and in theory you know, they might
have five thousand followers versus another influence around a hundred thousand followers, but the
e M v of the hundred thousand follower influencer might be greater than the bigger
influencer because they have stronger engagement. So it kind of factors in both impressions
and engagement Um into the earned media value that the software provides you. So
that's really helpful. As you if you're going to be investing significant dollars into
a platform, you know, into an effort like influencer marketing, you need
to be able to measure it. So and you talk about dollars a bit.
So you know, how much does an influencer campaign costs compared to other
marketing channels? You know what's been your experience? Yeah, I mean it's
quite expensive in general compared to, you know, other effort, you know,
other initiatives when it comes to cpms or, you know the amount of
views you actually get. But it's also but it's hard to measure the sort
of intangibles when it comes to influencer marketing, just in terms of a more
authentic brand experience, better getting across your uh brand benefits and things like that.
And I think that's one of those things where you almost like, if
you know that your consumer is is following influencers and is going to be impacted
by influencers, you sort of have to just dive in and start doing because
you can't work with one influencer, two influencers. I think you're going to
see an impact. It's like an ongoing, constant thing, you know,
month in and month out, and then you really start to see the flywheel
of that buzz where you're like Oh, like, you know, more people
are reaching out to us Um in our D M is, asking to work
with us. Maybe you talk to a buyer at a big retail store and
they've heard of you because they've seen it um on Instagram, or their kid
has mentioned it because their kids have seen it on instagram or Tiktok or things
like that. So it's it's sort of these intangible or like, you know,
not directly conversion, you know, related metrics that that you start to
see once you really lean into influencer. That I think is really interesting.
And also the long term view, as you just mentioned, that it's not
something that you just turn on and then you know today it just starts to
work. Uh. It is something that you know, you're nurturing it over
and over and over again in its quarter after quarter, you know, year
after year, and that how it builds on it. And I like your
description of the flywheel, about pulling that in, uh, and then the
you know, the return start to come from there. So, Um,
I think that's excellent. So, aside from swoon, which companies in the
market today do you think are successful using influencer marketing, as you know,
part of their marketing strategy? Yeah, so, I mean the last company
I worked with, which is poppy, is excellent at influencer marketing. Um,
I would say, you know, the influencer marketing manager we had a
poppy, came from vital proteins and she was fantastic. Vital Proteins, I
think, is also another one that does influencer marketing really well. Um,
I mean, yeah, I think. I think just having influencer team members
who are really, really motivated and and really nurture those influencer relationships is so
key because when it comes to influencers, again, any brand can go out
and pay most influencer, you know, not every influencer. Again, some
influencers are very picky with who they work with Um. That being said,
any company can find some influencers to work with, but I think the more
important part is nurturing those relationships and keeping them ongoing. So Um, you
know, doing ongoing gifting is really important. You know, influencer boxes and
things like that, and I think there's just a ton of brands in the
CPG space. Obviously I'm morettuned to the CPG space, but also in the
beauty space. They've seen really cool Um influencer kids from, you know,
cosas Um. There's really who, you know, Chamberlain Coffee, I think
is great. At Um, you know, they have a celebrity influencer co
founder who we're working with. Not to keep bringing it back to our brand,
but that's okay, I mean, I mean there's there's just so many
that are doing it well these days it's it's actually hard to break through the
noise and I think that's where it's really important for a brand to have an
influencer team that's really day to day managing those influencer relationships, and that's what's
going to set you apart. That would be good. And what kind of
if you were if you were trying to build an influencer team, as you
described, you know, on your team. Uh, what kind of background
would you be looking for, you know, to try to hire onto the
team who would be successful as a as an influencer, as a member of
an influencer team? Yeah, I mean, I think ideally, working with
someone who already has experience with another CPG company in influencer marketing is ideal,
because I think when it comes to influencers, we start segmenting out influencers of
like this person skews towards like, you know, beauty content. This influencers
used towards nutrition content, this influencers used towards you know, whatever it might
be. So obviously, if you're, you know, wanting most of your
influencers to be in sort of a health and wellness space, finding a an
influencer manager who has already worked with brands in that space is would be number
one, but also a second secondarily, I think, Um, finding someone
who's worked with an influencer, because a lot of influencers these days have someone
helping them with their posts, with their contracts, with their schedules and things
like that. So yeah, so finding someone who's like worked directly with an
influencer is also sort of has a leg up because they have seen that the
flip side of things and that therefore it makes them better poise to negotiate relationship,
you know, negotiate contracts and work influencer relationships on behalf of the brand.
Yeah, that's fascinating. I actually hadn't thought of that. But the
certainly the experience in working with an influencer. They're going to know what motivates
them, they're going to know, you know, sort of the structure of
arrangements and expectations of what it would be like to be an influencer. Uh.
So, excellent advice there. That's that's really fascinating on on the influencers
side. And so and if we broaden a net, back out now a
little bit in addition to influencer and think about all the other, you know,
parts that you have in a in a in a marketing mix. Um.
So what, what career lessons sort of have you gained on how you
create an overall, you know, digital or Omni Channel Campaign to be successful?
Let's say, let's take it from like a brand new product launch.
Um, you know, what are some of those key lessons that you've learned
to ensure success. Yeah, I think Um, you know, being in
marketing for so long, there's always, you know, they talk about the
marketing funnel. So you know, top of funnel awareness and then sort of
engagement and conversion. And you want to be based on where your company is
at in the if you're a startup, obviously you need to put more funds
towards awareness driving tactics. If you're more established brand Um, you want to
focus more on the lower funnel conversion. You know, you might be more
focused on running promotions, Um, the consumer experience, consumer loyalty side of
things. So I think you know, there's always the sort of standard Um
marketing channels, activations that you that you think about. You know, from
an awareness standpoint there's UH pay digital, there's PR uh, there's influence or
things like that. From sort of the the mid funnel, you know,
once you they know about your product and maybe they're on your email list.
So there's you know, keeping them engaged through email, through SMS, uh,
you you know, through sampling demos and sampling things like that, and
then of course you want to convert them. So then again that goes to
promotions, whether it's Um digital promotions or instore promotions and things like that.
And then, finally, like the loyalty piece, is just making sure they
have an excellent experience every time and you give them incentives, Um, to
shoot spread the word with their with their friends and families. So I think,
knowing that, like the certain buckets that I want to focus on,
I just adjust that accordingly based on the size of the company and the consumer
insights that I hope, hopefully have or I'm working on getting on each particular
brand, to adjust accordingly. Wonderful, I love that. I appreciate all
of that background. I think that's great. Uh. So, before we
wrap up today's episode, so what is the main takeaway that you want to
leave us with in understanding the challenges facing marketing operations executives today, I would
say, you know, it's it's a ultra competitive environment and there are a
lot of ways to Um, you know, get get data and you,
I think, just being really Um, fast paced and always working with a
sense of urgency and always going back to the consumer, constantly going back to
the consumer and their experience. Where are they living, learning and buying and,
Um, you know, always looking at your data, uh, and
making sure that you're you have the right KPI s set up for every stage
of that of the funnel. So, you know, making sure that you're
looking at, you know, awareness, driving tactics and maybe your KPI for
that is um impressions or media value, and constantly optimizing Um for the,
I guess, the objective that you're running towards Um for, you know,
lower funnel, looking at the data when it comes to how well your promotions
performing Um and and pivoting accordingly. So I think in this day and age
it's so easy to get data from every single UM source, there's no reason
not to be constantly looking at the data and constantly adjusting your strategy Um as
as needed. So I think, I think those would be my my key
takeaways and key keys to success when it comes to marketing and marketing operations.
That's wonderful. Well, that wraps up this episode of the art of marketing
operations. Thank you so much for joining us today, Chelsea. Thank you
for having me. Thank you for listening to the art of marketing operations brought
to you by Taylor. Don't forget to hit subscribe in your favorite podcast player.
If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and share until next time,