Welcome to the art of marketing operations, a tailor podcast. Here you can
grow your knowledge about marketing operations, listen to ideas and strategies to help you
scale, grow and optimize your efficiency, drive your speed to market and enrich
your work life. Let's get to it. Welcome to the art of marketing
operations, a tailor podcast. I'm Glen bottomly, and today my guest is
Jasmine car now sales operations manager for lessonly, a training enablement in coaching platform
that provides benefits to all sizes of organizations and now part of seismic, a
leading provider of sales enablement enterprise software. Thanks for joining me today, Jasmine.
Thank you. Happen to be your excellent now, before we get started,
I like sharing a little bit of personal background about our guests and I
understand that you are a volunteer for big brothers big sisters. Can you share
a little bit about your involvement and how rewarding is this been for you to
be a volunteer? Yeah, absolutely so. I have been a big sister
now for four years. I originally signed up because I looked out to native
Puspur work seven years ago now, and really wanted to connect and get back
to the community and also have an excuse and of you know, partner and
crime, to go out and explore different areas in the city without having to
go on a dating up. And so I actually volunteered and I'm a wonderful
little girl who is now one to be in eighth grade that I met her
when she was eight years old. So it's been really amazing just watching her
grow up and half her become part of my family. You know, now
I'm many years later, I am married and expecting my first child. So
problem it's just it's been an amazing experience for her to be a part of
all effect and to know her as well and and share and everything in her
life. Oh that sounds so rewarding. Well, that's wonderful. Thank you
for sharing that. That's excellent. Well, so now let's move into marketing
operations and sales operation. So in the marketing discipline today, marketing operations is
it's clearly growing in importance as sort of this key intersection between marketing strategy,
sales, customer service, business development in MARTEC and so some even go so
far to include all of those functions in a more global revenue ops functions function
and I know that you support that approach. So can you share a bit
more about what revenue operations means to you and how does sales ops and marketing
ops sit in that function? Sure so, rebin operations to me is a
function that obviously is operations for the entire revenue and marketing participates in that.
Phone is why believe any operations that supports the entire waterfall, but also under
one umbrella. I've spoken to many, many, many marketing leaders that would
argue that marketing operation should sit under marketing. However, most marketing leaders are
mostly focused on brand and messaging and marketing operations rarely ever, deals with brand
and messaging on a daily basis. There are more focused on lead routing and
scoring and you know, functionality and their heads is in operations and they work
most closely with the revenue leaders as well as sales source administrators, those other
TEXTAC administrators and and they're focused in the numbers and timing and lead routing and
very little that has to do with grant and so I would absolutely argue that
marketing operations should roll up into reduing operations. Interesting, interesting, and have
you seen that a lot of organizations, either one you're at right now or
at in other organizations previously. Yeah, so I have actually seen both.
So I have lived in a world where marketing operations that under marketing, but
there was constantly a battle between revenue operations leaders and marketing leaders when marketing operations
sat on the marketing side. Because when I was on the revenue operations team,
we worked daily with our marketing operations person and yet they did not attend
any of our team meetings, they were not a part of our overall overall
of krs, and that really made it difficult for us to understand what their
priorities for what they should be working on, and they felt tied stuck between
two different teams and also thirteen meetings for focus on brand messaging, messaging and
events, which really didn't equate to what they were doing on the day to
day. And so in your in your connection, as you stayed, to
the marketing team, the Brandon Messaging Team, are have you found that the
marketing operations you still have that tight connection for content, the branding of that
content, marketing materials, things that are taking and propelling a prospect through a
funnel. So you're still maintaining that connection but making sure that once that,
you know, those those content pieces, the brand, the relevant brand components
are done, then it really shifts over to the marketing operations team and then
that team takes over, to your point in terms of lead routing and scoring
in all of the operational aspects of bringing in the business. Yeah, absolutely,
absolutely. They will work closely with the content marketing team only in ensuring
that all of the emails that are set up for St Keating, source of
journey and Gainsite, for example, are La, will correctly in a way
that they go out to the right customer base. But they're focused on all
the sales force flows that this is going to actually tie to and what reps
are actually going to work the leads that come out of that. They're not
their head space is not going to be very much in who's going to be
showing up to event. They're going to say when the leads are generated from
this event, who's are going to go to they're had. Is Way more
focused on how the piece that connects marketing to stills that really is in marketing
and I think that is that is the core piece that were revenue operations that's
is a way different business units actually communicate and coordinate together. HMM, interesting
that. Yeah, that's entering it also. You know, I think we've
had other guests on this podcast, that the that organizational hierarchy and structure and
location of where marketing operation sits it is an interesting one. I think,
to your point, some sit outside of sort of traditional marketing, others it's
a integral part of an overall revenue operations of sales, customer, you know,
marketing opps, etc. And so that it is a fascinating approach that
is probably bound and influenced by organizational culture, by experience, the needs of
the business, etc. So I think that's a really interesting conversation to continue
to have. So what have you found, then, to be sort of
the biggest inhibitors for the organizations that you've worked at in adopting recommendations from marketing
operations teams or or Revenue Operations Teams? When we're speaking to the leaders of
both marketing and Robin Operations, I feel that, you know, I that's
going to just grabens left Grain Versus Upright rain. Right marketing leaders and to
be a some brilliant creative will rebin operations are more focused, are more analamable,
more focused on reality, numbers and and I don't want to say hard
facts. This marketing also likes our facts, but I want to say that
they are more focused on process as well, process one, and that's really
what marketing operations is, this process. So and having worked closely with many
different marketing operations people, whether they roll, Doctor Marketing or rebbit of operations,
we tend to get along very well, to be very similarly minded,
work so fostly. But yeah, well, and thank you also for referring
to the left and right brain, because that is very much this podcast.
You know, we talk a lot about, you know, the art of
marketing operations, that you know this left and right brain concept, as you
mentioned, because it is a unique aspect that you know you've got the creative,
you got the content, you got all of that side of it in
the innovation for extending and expanding a funnel, and then all of the hard
metrics, the detailed information. So so here's a question for you on that.
Have you had a situation where your marketing operations function using very specific hard
data, everything that you can point to, where you feel that all of
that information is fully supported through the data in the metrics that you're measuring.
You're trying to introduce some change to your enterprise, but senior leadership or enterprise
leadership is not convinced. So when you're faced with that sort of situation,
how do you try to encourage and be a catalyst for change? Absolutely,
I love that question. I think some really great examples of that is when
we're looking at and reevaluating an IP. I have seen that most often.
You know, we have a sales leaders who have it in their mind what
accurate person they should be looking for is, you know, way have sales
reps too, are chasing specific qualities of a customer. But working backwards from
your current customer base and seeing, you know, who are we having,
foremost long term bogos and one of the qualities of those businesses and being able
to redefine your ICP based on who you're retaining. I think has been the
most valuable way to push for change when it comes to an ICP, instead
of approaching from the opposite way of phone. If you're thinking about these are
the top companies, you know, and here's a list of all the top
companies you should going after. Much harder conversation to have you don't have the
backing of your current customer base to provide that for you. So I think
that is usually my best approach is, well, what has already worked and
lest yeah, that's that's that's a very good point, which is you may
have a perception of who your customer is in terms of your own view of
an ICP, but your point is, let's ground that in who's buying from
us today, and if we can better understand who's buying from us today,
clearly it's working because that person, they are already a customer. They are
already either renewing with you, buying, you know, continuously, etc.
So evaluate your existing buyers and then backtrack that up, not to be idealistic
on who you think your buyer is, but who is your actual buyer,
evaluate them and then create a profile, ie persona, on them. Yeah,
absolutely, absolutely, and I've gone to this exercise a number of different
times and it was, I think, the easiest approach to providing change into
our Merkan strategy, into our sales process strategy, into the way we organize
sales force and worked with the data within sales force and also enriched our data.
It actually launched a number of different process pajas when we were able to
work through that process and that practice and gathering all that data, and so
it was. I find that that view has been the most helpful and to
generate change that will ultimately lead to revenue. Excellent point. So now now
in your career, what what have you found to be the most challenging aspects
of much of the sort of the heavy lift that marketing operations teams face every
single day, lead identification, lead routing, lead management, etc. And
then what, what tactics have you deployed or put in place that help to
minimize or eliminate those problems? Sure so. I think the biggest challenge is
one you didn't mention, which would be attribution. I think that is absolutely
the biggest challenge. That is on a daily basis of the time of reckon
dollars all the way down from the sourcing of these and I think what's trickiest
about this is exactly what revenue operations boks. The solved is that keeping every
single part of the funnel tie clost together. For example, if marking operations
with them their own bubble, when there are attributing specific qualities. Two leads,
for exemple but then sales reps go to convert these leaves and sales works
them in a very different way. That doesn't ultimately attribute where the source of
that lead came from to the ultimate opportunity. That was close one. You're
not going to track attribution. So I think you know marking operations working for
the entire funnel and been staying in tune with how things are being processed through
the entire funnel in order to get accurate attribution revenue numbers from their different sources.
It's definitely continuously a challenge and I think that's where being as closely to
tie too rene operations can can really help and benefit when they are have a
hand all the way down to a close one opportunity. Yeah, and in
it. So how how do you how have you found that the best way
to ensure that you're absolutely measuring the entire funnel? So your point, I
really I think that's insightful about you know, the attribution in marketing operations,
tying that back throughout the entire funnel. That that was an interesting phrase or
to use throughout the entire funnel. So how have you found the best way
to make sure that you're not just necessarily looking at a subset of the funnel,
but that you're actually looking at that entire funnel to get that depth and
richness of information in insight about your sales efforts. Absolutely, and I think
I think that starts with being very closely touch your sales force administrator or have
fout administrator or anyone who's administrating your text act and in the ways that it's
to any of your sales tools. You know, I've seen before when marketing
operations wasn't a supposely tied to salesporce administration and they weren't aware that sales was
making changes in their process and sales work, for example, and so they
weren't aware that there was a disconnect between the leads they were generating and the
ultimate close one opportunity. So they had no way to get accurate reporting and
closed on opportunities to see who attempted a specific one, for example, or
you know which one of those closed one opportunities had people who clipped on our
website or responded to a specific marktto email. And so if you can,
and you know we're closely with your salesporce administrator and be up to date on
the entire sales process, all the way down to account managers or client success.
Then you are going to have a good idea and make sure to maintain
that. What the the data that you are putting into the system, it's
also coming out when you were tracking room. MMM Yeah, I like that
and I think that you know for anyone depend regardless of which crm that they
are using sales force, you know digital marketing platforms, as you mentioned hub
spot, email marketing platforms, and in consumer engagement you know platforms like Marquetto
as you mentioned. I think anyone that is in our audience listening now is
has probably felt that challenge that you just described. So one is I think
that there's a lot of heads nodding listening to you right now and then a
lot of people taking notes in terms of okay, how do I overcome this?
So that's that's excellent. So thank you for that, for that input.
So so let's switch here a little bit on metrics. One of the
one of the areas that we hear a lot about that is sometimes heavily used
in other times greatly maligned, is net promoter score. So can you talk
a little bit about how relevant, if at all, is net promoter score
for Your Business and do you even find it relevant to to measure MPs and
and then, if so, what sort of been your experience and implementing and
ps effectively, you know, in your career? So I love this question
because I know any director or leader of any customer success team is going to
say, oh, of course that promoter scores important and that is that is
the beal and all current customer success. You know, ideals and me tricks
today and I know that they do also rely on those leaders rely a lot
on working operations to ensure that those service are going out, that they're going
out with right time, that they're going to right people in the right leadership
give us an accurate visibility into that. I in my current organization I am
not quite as tied to, especially because our position by seismic two never more
to score and how we're tracking that. But I can't speak that into another
organization I worked with, which is one cause, and I actually worked within
our gamesite platform in building and PAS surveys and sending us out to our current
customer base and and I had my hand in somewhat of marking operations there,
even as a Roman operations person, because they was I was the gainsite administrator,
and MPs scores are strictly done through insight when you have that tool,
and it was definitely quite an experience in understanding the timing of when should we
send up and pscors, especially because at one cause, even though they are
an annual subscription, you know Sass Company, they really focus heavily around actual
in person live events. So there were very strict times within a customers life
cycle or an annual contract that we would want to time our NPS scores based
on the services that we're delivering around those dates and so getting the time and
right. And those on pscurs and how they affected, you know, their
logo retention muchal quite interesting to track, and so I would say that MPs
scores were definitely actioned on by that organization and we actually found that we were
able to understand our retention more with MPs scores. You know, we did
see a higher attention with higher mpscore, so it did make sense to us
when we reviewed it, and obviously lower attention with lower MPs cours as well,
and I think it actually helped our support teams as well action on them.
When we got a low and score, we're able to reach out to
them and solve any problems they might have been having that resulted in a low
MPs score reply our survey. So I think it just gave us one more
piece of data to action on in order to increase retention in general or understand
where likelihood of the renewal tow as well. Yeah, well, and I
think that there's something in your response that I want to make sure to highlight
for our audience, and that is that your view of the successful implementation of
MPs is that it is an action, not a noun, in other words,
that MPs score is not a thing. It's not just a single number.
Score that is is in and of itself and result, but it was
something where, you said, when we then went back and looked at the
account that had, you know, in provided low MPs scores and we dug
into the account to discover what was happening, then we could understand how it
was tied back to how they responded on that survey. So to me that
is NPS in action. It is a verb there as opposed to a noun
of a thing, of or a number that is is in and of itself
merely a statistic. So I think that's I think that's a powerful view of
how you look at that and I would encourage you know, organizations who are
thinking about exploring MPs or incorporating MPs use jasmine's insight here that it is more
than just that. That measurement. Absolutely, because if you go down to
the individual account that will you're going to be able to do, especially if
you're gathering comments on those them ps cours as well, which must organizations to
to be able to get life in sight that they might not share on a
customer call or for early business review. And you're also going to be able
to spread any all those action items that come out of those comments across multiple
departments, across your success team, your support teams, your sales teams,
for example, if the comments are this is what I expected with my subscription,
this is what I got, you know. And then so you can
coach across all different apartments with the single survey response. MMM well, and
also your comment there about coaching to that. You know, there is service
recovery here. MPs can be used for service recovery. It can be used
for fixing, you know, and or ensuring renewal, preventing lost customer per
retaining customers. You know that. That's, I think, MPs. That's
where the value of it really comes in is, again, the downstream.
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Let's jump into a big topic that I know is an issue that a
lot of marketing operations executives deal with, and that is revenue reporting. So
I know that when you and I've chatted in the past, you mentioned to
me how important revenue reporting is, but now I would imagine that many of
our listeners struggle to get accurate revenue reporting. Partly do, I would imagine,
to your comment early about attribution, but it could also just simply be
because you know one of our listeners is in an organization that's highly complex,
or possibly their sale cycles be tob sales cycles are extremely long, or maybe
you know some system issues or other systemic complexities that impact either the accuracy or
the timeless timeliness of of revenue reporting. So how have you found in your
own career, how do you overcome those types of challenges related to revenue reporting
and and what advice can you provide to our audience about how they can get
better and more accurate revenue reporting? Absolutely, I love that question. I
think you know another area within attribution is not just ensuring that your aut aftribution
carries always with the funnel, but that you're getting every piece of that attribution
as well. I've definitely seem a struggle where, let's say a prospect comes
to a trade show and the your two thousand and fifteen and then we have
a closed one opportunity with them and two thousand and eighteen. But they've also
got another marketing emails. I've also checked to our website or few times.
Where do we actually put that attribution? You know, what was it that
actually converted them? That's difficult to when you have sales ups who are also
reaching out to them throughout that time and ultimately finally get them on the phone
and the prospect says, Oh, yeah, I've heard of you guys and
Wuch one of them a couple of years ago, and so yeah, now
we're ready to buy because I'm familiar with your brand and like your product.
And I think what's important is it in the end, I think as long
as you're capturing every single point of you know how you're reaching out to that
customer and that customers ultimately them a tie to the opportunity or the record of
the closed deal. You're going to have all of those different pieces of you
know how you reached out to that prospect and who reached out and when to
then tie to attribution. And if you have a great attribution tool, I
don't know if that's sense or man base or anything else you might be using.
You know, hopefully there is an Alvorath men tell you how much we
can apply to what attribution, and that is more marketing leaders can also steppen
as well to kind of make decisions on the time right. You know,
if the only record that we have as this customer went to an event two
thousand and fifteen and then a sales rep reach out in two thousand and twenty
and there was nothing in between, or probably not going to tie them to
the event in two thousand and fifteen. As far as attribution, we're probably
going to say the credit goos sales rap at that point. Yeah, and
I think that's marketing leaders can step out and make those decisions and how they
reported. Yeah, now that's that's salient point here, because I think,
you know, it also reminds me of, you know, sort of e
commerce attribution. You know, you come as websites and it you know,
was it the display ad? You know, was it the was it the
website? Was it the last click? Was it their first click? What
was it? And you know, and do you attribute it holistically or completely?
It was the first thing. It was the trade show, using your
example in two thousand and fifteen. Wow, that doesn't really feel right.
You know, was it the sales rep even though there were twenty other things
that the customer engaged in. Content, blog, you know, what,
what have you email, multiple clicks, you know, et Cetera, downloading,
putting their email address on the website multiple times and visit. You know.
Well, I'm going to give it all to the web, to the
to the sales representative in terms of attribution. So it's I think what I'm
hearing from you there too, is there's a bit of balance, there's a
bit of logic and common sense in terms of how you're attributing this sale,
and but that once you do that, when you do it over and over
and over and over again, you're going to get enough data that will ultimately
settle in to potentially a trend. It appears. Looks like eighty percent of
our closed one opportunities in the last four years, or let's say two years,
you know, eighty percent of them an email was involved at some point
in the closing of that of that deal. You know, eighty percent of
the time, you know, they always came to our website and they always
had this sort of journey on the website. And so that, I think,
is what I'm hearing from you is data, data, data. Absolutely,
you nailed it, especially when it comes to when you look back at
the combined data and you're saying, well, this is all the call stuff
they share, and that's where, you know, I reiverate. It's so
important to be so mostly tied to your textoff administrators and make sure that all
of the data is captured in the same or place. Now, and my
experience that's been salesforce and that's been on the contact level, right, but
making sure you know, even on the sale side of that, that those
contacts are being added to opportunities appropriately, because if you miss that stuff then
you're ultimately mapping at the recording they want. So working closely with sales leaders
and run operations leaders to make sure that, hey, we have all those
Marquetto information type of this contact, but they're not adding opportunity contact roles.
So their opportunities were missing out on quite a lot of information. Yeah,
and so that's where, again, rolling up into ructive operations also a lot
of those problems. Yeah, well, that's a good call out as well.
Is Gaps in the data point again to action. That the gap,
the gaps that you're seeing in those data allow you insight into how you can
work internally in your organization. That, Gosh, it looks like of the
closed one opportunities fifty percent of them in the last month didn't have any sort
of attribution or there was no winloss information or there was no whatever. That
points you in a certain direction to then feedback to improve the the fly wheel,
essentially to keep everything moving. So so jas been you've talked a bit
about some tools in some of the tools that you're currently using and also some
of that that you've used in the past. So you know, is there
would you say, is there a resource or a tool or maybe a channel
that marketing operations leaders aren't using correctly to day, or maybe they're not maximizing
the usage of a tool or a platform that you know? If you could,
you know, scream from the mountain tops and make sure that every marketing
operations leader you know, you know around the world would hear you, what
would that be? You know, I love that question because you know,
as a sales operations person who sits in between sales and marking and it works
a fulls of marketing operations person, I would actually surprise I probably if people
by saying a tool like seals left or outreach, and the reason for that
is it's because it's not a marketing operations tool, it's a sales tool.
However, these are sales reps who are using templates in emails and cadences that
are reaching out to our customers in the same way that marketing does, and
you want to ensure that the way that they are reaching out to our prospects
mirrors the way that marketing is reaching out to our prospects. So if you
are using any of those sales cadence tools, you should make sure that you're
involving marketing as much as possible so they can actually provide the content and the
templates in the snippets to ensure that their sales rep have as much power as
your marquetto emails that you're sending now. And the great thing about those tools
as well, especially sales left, I'll say I'll call that one out.
I am a sort of find sales offt to the petrator as well, but
they're reporting is actually really top notch when it comes to reply rates and open
rates and click rates, and it can actually go and gather data from your
website as well and the same way that Marketto can do and viewership there and
translating over to hot leaves. And I think in all of experience and using
sales often, in the number of words that I'm us with, not enough
marketing folks were involved and the sales off administration, and I think ramping up
marketings involvement in that tool is a huge impact and how successful sales reps can
be converting the leads that you're spent and then also the reporting that comes out
of it. Yeah, that you know, the cadens piece. You've mentioned,
sales loft, outreach, sales forces, high velocity sales. You know
these these these cadence platforms as you as you describe, like you say.
There's that interesting that tool in and of itself sort of fits or sits in
between sales and marketing. So given your own experience of doing that, it
is interesting that that is also a platform that you yourself want to make sure
to highlight, because I think that's a really good point that you mentioned,
which is helping the sales teams a with their emails and their outreach, with
how often in their cadences, and then also providing that feedback and sort of
real time data and metrics back to sales, it really is just continuing.
It's sort of, you know, think about it from the from the overall,
you know, buy your journey. You know, they're starting top of
final, mid final, bottom of funnel sales experience, you know, you
know, decision. Then they're actually purchasing that, that whole entire process,
however fast that goes. You want to have as much data along the way
that you can. And and if the sales teams are not, you know,
provided with that information and they're just essentially, you know, going out
of their email platform, that, you know, just sending a message,
they're not getting the insights and are go marketing is not getting those insights.
So I think that's a really a really powerful call out. Absolutely and I
think to add to that as well, there are some cases when, you
know, sales reps are logging into a toile ex sales offt every single day
and our managers backing over the making of many calls the show, are sending
the emails or the completing their steps and then marketing will log on maybe one
support, but then marketing is not getting the viewers of data of like Oh
wow, those templates that we built have an open rate of twenty percent.
They have a clip rate of five percent and as other template that we provided
them is not doing as well, well, Marktto can provide some of that
day on the Marketto side when it's coming from a sales rep in and sales
reps are then personalizing those emails. I think those metric search ordinarily powerful because
then it's going from an individual person. It has some personalization to it,
since you're getting a whole other level of data and detail that you wouldn't get
from just any marketing concregation platform. Yeah, right, exactly. I think
that's excellent. And so, you know, if we raise the level of
abstraction here a little bit in our discussion, where do you generally look for,
you know, best practice information about marketing operations? Are there some resources
that you go to, publications that you leverage, blogs like where do you
go to get some of these best practices? You know, I think that
starts for me simply because I am Rep bobs. I always start with it
exact themselves. You know, I am definitely a certifications junking and every time
I go to Addmin a new tool, I have to get certified in it.
So I have three certifications and working on my fourth and fifth, hopefully
I'll have by this year, and I think those tools tend to provide because
they are kind of equate to our daily jobs at this point, the resources
that they provide can also provide a lot of best practices as well, just
playing out sells off. Again, they have a great knowledge base and they
put out a lot of great videos on Hey, these are our best sales
cadences, because we actually went through all of our customers who have the highest
replying rates and this is what they did and this these were their conversion rates
and this is what we saw. And I think text our tools, that
things can solidate best practice from pros customer base you're going to see equal success
with as well. So that's where a lot of my best practices and have
come from. is come from studying the different text I s that use as
a sales cource administrator, as a sales oftenminstrator, as the things I didministrator,
being able to build on my experience by learning from them and the rest
of the customers out there and my especially customer groups and Resources and communities and
you know it. I think also staying connected with other leaders as well in
different slack groups. Part of one of those pavilion. I am a coacher
at the women of the BILLIAMS group and love to connecting with different operation sports
as well. Call Out rebops, coop, I'll call wizards of OPS.
There's definitely a lot of them out there. We other leaders and operations as
well and just share cross as practices. But I think all of this combined
is kind of what as and you know, just experience and trial and error
is where I would say my experience goes from. That's excellent, excellent.
So, before we wrap up today's episode, what would be the one key
takeaway that you would like to leave our audience with about the importance and the
future of marketing operations? Sure, I would say the importance of marketing operations
is being a able to connect the dots between marketing record. I think they
are critical in that and I think that's where we're going to see a lot
more growth. Is One we don't keep thinking of marketing solely brind we think
of them as the top of them, think of them as they are the
ones who are biding us with all the sills has been closed and they are
a part of oven operations just as much as it's a part of our operations,
and they are within the customer life cycle as well, where I think
there are some layers are stuffing the only thinking they're not quite the customer life
cycle. They kind of throw people into the customer life so I'd say marketing
operations, with their metrics and their attribution measurements and and their way of,
you know, going all the way from with facebook adge and closing opportunity,
is critical and how business has going continue to attract new customers and retain the
purpens. That's excellent. Will leave it right there. This wraps up our
episode of the art of marketing operations. Thank you so much for joining us
today, Jasmine, and until next time, stay safe, take care and
thank you for listening. Thank you for listening to the art of marketing operations,
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