Welcome to the art of marketing operations, a tailor podcast. I'm Glenn Bottomley
and today my guest is Mark Clark, senior marketing operations manager at Indbior,
an organization working to change patients lives by developing medicines to treat substance abuse disorders
and serious mental illnesses. Thanks for joining me today, mark, Glenn,
thanks for having me pleasure to be here. Well, to start out today,
mark, you have a vast amount of knowledge in the healthcare industry and
in fact you got your bachelor of Science Degree in biology. So what drew
you to this area of expertise? You know, it's it's it's interesting right.
Everyone has a unique story and I think mine also falls into that category.
Even with the Bachelor of science and Biology, I did not see myself
falling into you know, healthcare, biotech marketing operations certainly wasn't on the radar
in my twenties. Um My father was an independent pharmacist and so I spent
years working with him in my family, a small town Virginia, Um your
Quintessentil Pharmacy, one aisle right straight to the back. My father was a
smoker, so you know the ash hanging off the cigarette and that sort of
thing. But he was a great guy and through my time working there I
had a ton of interactions with pharmaceutical sales reps Um. Those are sort of
the golden days of pharmaceutical pharmaceutical sales. Uh, you know, snazzy suits,
shiny cars, trips with doctors, all the things that really don't happen
nowadays. and Uh so I said that's interesting and I sort of put out
in the back of my head. As I progressed through a series of typical
positions for twenty year old, you know, cooking and bartending and all those
sorts of things, I finally dropped into a company called INEVIX, which is
a Um a sales company that provides adjunct salesforces to major pharmaceutical corporations. So
that gave me my first break into pharmaceutical sales and the healthcare industry. Um
and I you know, I really took to it. The sales portion of
things worked really well for me. I found that I had a knack for
speaking with people and you know, it wasn't difficult for me to speak to
a neurosurgeon versus the person who sweeping the floors up at night. Um.
So I could really run the gamut there. That progressed Um into a position
with a company called organogenesis. I spent two decades there. Um. That
was in field sales, field sales leadership and a variety of other positions as
a startup organization. An organic genesis, of course, played in the realm
of advanced wound care, so tissue engineering, skin equivalence, in those sorts
of things. So a pretty unique um corner of the industry, if you
will. And then, of course, uh, I worked my way up.
One day I was approached to join the marketing team. I said,
you know, I never really thought about marketing, but okay, why not?
Let's give the chance. Uh stepped in as a subject matter expert,
Um, competitive intelligence expert, and that progressed and worked its way into the
role of U A structor of marketing operations, which a title, by the
way, in a role that didn't exist at the company. And I find
that that's pretty that's pretty ubiquitous across industries. Um, people say, AH,
I think we need to have a marketing operations person. So that became
me. UH, learned trial by fire for three to four years, Um,
and then I've made my way over to Indbo at the beginning of this
year, um mimicking the same sorts of things that I was doing in Organogenesis,
but in a company that's certainly rebuilding itself over the last couple of years.
What a what a fascinating background that is. It is awesome to share
that in what I think is quite unique about your career background is that you've
been in sales, uh, as you just described, you've been in marketing,
UH, and now in marketing operations. So you've seen all three of
these major disciplines. So, from from your perspective, how has that background
and that experience in sales, marketing and now marketing operations? UH, how
have those three different perspectives help you develop better methods or, you know,
increase efficiency in the work that you're doing day to day in marketing operations?
That's a great question. You know, you don't really know what you have
either until it's gone, until you have to really put it into effect.
And so for me, especially stepping into the marketing operations world, what I
ran into quite frequently, and even on the brand side a little bit um
I found a lot of folks just didn't have that sales or field sales perspective
and and I think that really hinders an organization when you have folks that are
on the marketing team trying to get that messaging out, trying to make sure
that everybody understands what you're positioning is in the marketplace, if you don't have
the ability to see what the sales rep see on a day to day basis
or you don't have the experience or knowledge to see what the sales leadership has
to deal with on a day to day basis. And so for me I
found that things like understanding the perspective of the doctor, you know, sitting
down with a doctor one on one as a marketer and and conducting an interview
similar to what you and I are doing right here, having a podcast type
setting. That's great, but you may not be getting the real person behind,
the real thinking behind that that individual's Um, you know, storefront.
And so when you're in the field and you spend years working with doctors and
uh nurse practitioners and P A s and the nursing staff, the C suite,
the administrative side, you really begin to formulate a full and total picture
of what's going on on the healthcare side. Of the business and that translates
really well into a role in marketing operations where just about everything that I do
has some sort of touch point, oftentimes multiple touch points, out in the
field. I don't have as much direct interaction anymore with the individuals in the
field. Um, the sales reps, yes, not the clinicians so much
my current role. My previous role overgam of Genesis, I had a ton
and it was one of the things that I really loved and you can guarantee
that I'm moving towards that in my current role. That's one of the things
that I'm looking forward to in the future. So again, to wrap that
up, having that full perspective from, you know, day to day boots
on the ground, interactions with clinicians, working that all the way through into
the brand process and then bring it full circle into operations to make sure that
there's a sneak continuum back and forth. I think it's really key. Yeah,
I would agree with that. You and I have a very similar background,
not from the industry but uh in that experience in sales my own personal
career. I actually started in sales in print and I went out into the
field and sold commercial print and sold school yearbooks and, uh, that whole
experience of being in the field, living as a sales rep going, I
always described it, I went to a different Deli every single day for for
for lunch. It was on the in the field all day long, driving
in the car, learning the techniques of you know, drive to your furthest
uh, you know, appointment in the morning and you know, work your
way back to home and you know just all of the techniques. Uh,
you know that that you get in the field, but it just made me
a better marketer and understanding. Now, in terms of marketing print, how
do you actually do that? What's the most important thing to to know?
So, from from your perspective, then, what opportunities, as well as
challenges, then, have you phased throughout your career? When, say,
the strategy that you are working on, whether it's a marketing strategy and marketing
operations strategy, et Cetera, let's say it is right on target versus maybe
not so much on target. Yeah, you know. And and if you're
not failing, then you're probably not doing things correctly, right, because you
need you need to fail in order to succeed. Um, you know,
I'll stick with I could probably tell you a million sales stories. I'm sure
you could share some of your own. I'll stick with marketing operations for this
one. When I stepped into the role of my previous employer, Um,
truly there was no playbook, there was no design for marketing operations. Again,
you know, a position. Someone said, ah, we probably need
someone to kind of wrap all these different things up, Um, and there
was a lot. There was some mess, you know, there were things
that were just falling apart, Um, and there was no fault of anybody
at the organization. Until there was a one individual touch point or focal point
for all of the operational needs. Everything was being piecemealed out to different individuals,
right, oftentimes brand team members. And you know, being a brand
marketer and being a marketing operation specialists, you know, those are two very
different things. So, Um, we'll talk about we'll talk about the wind
first. Uh. You know, for me, Um, one of the
things that I was responsible for, and we don't have this capability at my
current employer, Um, we had a speaker's bureau. Right, so we're
talking a hundred plus H CPS. Um. We would handle, you know,
anywhere from six to seven hundred UM product theater type events per year across
the country. Um, it was really an enormous undertaking and of course we
partnered with a third party organization to help keep us in line, allegedly to
make sure that we were doing things correctly. So when I stepped in I
was familiar with the speakers bureau. I had run speaker programs as a Rep.
certainly I've ever seen them as a field leader, but now I was
in the hot seat to make sure that the process was flowing correctly. And
boy was was it not flowing correctly. What I said so very right.
And there you go, there and so uh so. So, you know,
just I could talk about so much, but I think the most important
when here was taking a look at the big picture. Again, it's all
about the big picture. Okay, I had to have a ton of information
fire hosed at me from all the different people that have been playing around with
the bureau over the previous three to four years. Um, look for risks.
Right, I did look for some big time risk for the organization and
there were some from a data reporting perspective, from compliance with Sunshine Act laws
to make sure that we're reporting transfers of value. All of these things were
just not being done, Um, in a very efficient manner. They were
being done, but it was it was risky the way things were being handled.
Um, we were losing money, you know, on the Speakers Bureau.
It just wasn't uh, it just it just wasn't worth the revenue that
we're putting into it for what we were getting out of it. The speakers
hadn't been trained in a year or two. That was an issue from a
compliance standpoints. All these things were out there and for me, as I
sat there over the first, we'll call it thirty to sixty days of my
tenure and I absorbed all this information and I've worked with our third party vendor
to figure out where they they perceived the gaps to be. You know,
made sure that the company understood where we had some wins but where we had
some gaps, and then had to take all of that and put it together
into a structure that made sense, not only from a compliance and risk management
standpoint, but from a revenue and operating standpoint, so that the field,
the end users out in the field and the speakers, the one so hcps,
who really looked to us as the leader of this process. They felt
good about being a member of that bureau. It took thirty sixty days for
me to understand and have the information together. We'll say. It took another
nine to twelve months to really get that thing moving in the direction that needs
to move into. Um. So I'll call that a big win. And
overall, you know, we ended up staying a couple hundred thousand dollars along
the way, which was not a bad thing for the for the folks up
in the C suite of my company. Um, you know, from a
win perspective, I checked that box for sure. Um, from from,
you know, a challenge that I faced that maybe didn't go as well as
I thought. Um, we also had a process for approval of materials,
relevant field materials. Right in healthcare, there's an awful lot of scrutiny on
what sorts of white papers, information, promotional, advertising materials a sales rep
can put in front of an HCP or even even more hand off to an
HCP so they could walk away with it. And that process was called advertising
and promotions was the name of it. And it was a committee, Um,
and the committee was made up of, you know, anywhere from five
to seven individuals. So you have folks from compliance, I had folks from
Um, executive leadership and legal team, medical team, brand marketing, etcetera,
etcetera, and then, of course the operations gay, and my role
was to again sort of clean up that process. The meeting was being held
Um, it was being held face to face. This was pre covid h.
So every week these folks would gather into a really hot, stuffy room
in the windows and would sit there for hours and review material that was coming
from various parts of the organization. Um. More often than not it was
coming from brand marketing, but there were other parts of the organization that had
things they wanted to get out as well. And it was painful, Glenn.
I mean just just brutal right. WE'RE NOT TALKING THIRTY MINUTES, we're
talking three hours, you know. And so, Um, a couple of
things. You know, I had never been involved with that process before.
So, as I was observing and watching the transfers of information, how people
were sharing documents and cleaning things up and making comments and finalizing, Um was
inefficient, right, very inefficient. Um. We had no digitization, which
is a compliance issue, no digitization of assets, which means you couldn't keep
track of changes and when things would expire and you have to get something new.
So there's just all sorts of holes there and my quick recommendation to my
boss at the time, the VP of marketing, was we need to find
a company that we can partner with to help us capture this information more efficiently
so that it's not just residing in an email inbox somewhere or sitting on somebody's
server right in a file that maybe you can get to and maybe you can't.
So she said, okay, I give a shot. I quickly went
out, I vetted three vendors, I went through the R F I RFP
process and we came down to a company. Um, and I'll leave their
name out of it, but we came down to the company I thought was
going to be really, really good. You know, they promised the world
so smooth we in a great will with any system. Oh my gosh,
you don't even have a system yet. This is gonna be great again.
Six, nine months down the road, it was a disaster. It was
an absolute Luke train wreck. We just we just couldn't get people on the
same page and we had a varying levels of proficiency with I t now it's
a it's a more remote process versus this face to face meeting every week,
which people hated but they've gotten used to. It's hard to teach an old
dog new tricks, and we had five to seven of them there. So,
Um, we we did end up going with the digitized process, but
the first swing was a big mess, and you know that doesn't feel great
when you talk about it, Um, but at the end of the day
it was a learning lesson for me. I was able to see more clearly.
Oh my gosh, you're the things I didn't even think about as I
was going through this process, and I look where we are. Let's start
over again and try to bring somebody and who could fill all these gaps.
Well, and to your point, you know you had to go through that
to then know what win, what a wind would be. You know what's
right. You had to do what, you had to change, you know,
to your point, sometimes you have to fail to to ultimately succeed.
You know, the old line fail faster so you can succeed sooner. Uh
So, it sounds certainly like that. That's a good example of that.
Now in your descriptions there, though, I heard compliance three times uh.
And obviously in the healthcare space pretty critical. So from your perspective, how
has the marketing operations discipline in healthcare been impacted by, you know, regulatory
or legislative issues, etcetera. And and and what do you sort of see
on the horizon for marketing operations with things like, you know, obviously hip
a, privacy, GDP, R, C C P A, you know
other individual rights, et Cetera. It's not sell you lookland. It's IT'S
gonna be interesting to see how this off flashes out. And and you know,
for me this is this is new turf for me right I have not
had to deal with Um, these some of these privacy testings, all the
compliance heavy. Certainly was my old organization, my previous organization, and my
current organization super compliance heavy. Um. So I'm hearing more and more about
this. When you and I first to talking, uh, and I looked
at some of the things that we might discuss today, I started to dive
a little deeper into G D M P and I'll c CCP the Colorado and
then I realized that I live in Virginia and guess what, Virginia has one
that's coming right down the barrel. And so you know, what I see
is it's going to be incredibly challenging, not impossible, but incredibly challenging for
organizations who are Um above that threshold of of the number of folks that they're
going to interact with. Right. I think in Virginia it's Uh any customer
databasis greater than twenty five thousand targets or something along those lines. So if
you look at the way the regulations are written, and it's pretty standard across,
whether it's the Colorado, the California, the Virginia, the EU.
Um, it's pretty standard and and it basically says, if I'm giving you
my information, I have to believe that you're gonna do a certain set of
things with it and I'm going to also have to believe that there's a huge
set of things that you're not going to do with it. Right, and
I always have the capability to opt out of that. Always I can shut
it off at a moment's notice as the consumer, as the person that you
are targeting Um from the company. And I can tell you, you know,
my current organization seems to be pretty on the ball. I am not
yet sure what the pathway is going. What's the vehicle gonna be that's going
to help drive our compliance with these things? Um, but when I look
across and I've talked to some of my other friends and have some folks in
the family who are, you know, startup business sorts of leaders, and
they're struggling right. They're struggling with how are they going to keep this straight?
One person in particular, who's had a digital footprint for for years now
from the organizations that he started, I've been very successful with. His current
organization is global and it's all digital. It's it's all digital, and he
is really stuck right now trying to figure out how, in the next six
months, he's going to be able to meet the compliance means of the Organization
of the folks who are set in the rules, because one time, you
know, you mess up, one time, that can have an effect on
your entire business flow right. It could shut you down potentially. So the
question for me is, you know what vehicles are going to rise to the
surface right? They're going to be the drivers of compliance for all of the
different types of industries that need to follow this and that I don't want to
say the heyday the party is not over for cookies and trails and data bits
and it's not over, but it's certainly the fun police have come in and
put the squash on some of the free for all that's been going on over
the last ten years. So to be continued the fun police. That's that's
good. I like that. Well, you in your example there, you
talked about you know that you make the wrong move there and it could shut
you down. So to me, let's broaden that a little bit and talk
about risk, because in a sense that that is, you know, that's
one example of risk that you just that you just gave. So so how
how do you see that marketing operations executive should incorporate risk assessment, let's say,
or risk management, you know, into their strategies and tactics, but
particularly when the risk is to like even in your example, the risk is
to the corporate brand or to the corporation. Correct, and you know,
maybe I was a little over the top. You know, I don't think
one time if you make a mistake, they're gonna come run in and shut
your company down. However, the halfway that's going to be created, or
that's being created as we speak, to rectify that situation might be more painful
than just implementing something on the front end. I suspect it will be.
So when you talk about, you know, minimizing risk or risk management,
right, the definition of risk management is it's the process of finding, assessing
and controlling threats to your company's financial security more than anything, right, we're
all companies are in business to make money, to to have revenue. So,
from a marketing operations perspective, Um particularly, I mean started off in
my previous company, there were so many holes, so many holes with regards
to risk. I mean the biggest one there was the sunshine act reporting,
right. So how do you mitigate that? Well, number one, you
have to understand what does the sun I'll use that as an example. What
does the sunshine at say? Right, what does it mean? How is
it defined? What are the parameters? What are the things that you are
required to do as an organization? And then, from an ops management perspective,
back into that, right, okay, okay, well, here's the
list. Let me say. Are we doing this? Are we doing this?
We're not doing that, we have to do this, and now we
have a truncated time frame to make sure that we're getting there going hand in
hand with that, though, is we have to communicate. I say we,
I mean the industry, has to communicate to those folks that are gonna
be assessing whether or not we are running a risky business. Right if we
if we were gonna vacuum, we're doing all these things. We know we
have problems here, we know that, but we're not telling anybody about it,
except for the internal stakeholders, which they should all know about it um
and that's another element, is incorporating risk management and of the culture so that
everyone can be a piece of it. But if we're not communicating with the
outside entities, whether it's the the D O J or whoever it might o,
i. g. whoever it might be within the United States government,
they don't know what we're doing. All they see is what's on the platform,
right, and they're just gonna tear that apart and then it's a scramble
to fix that. So operations is all about process improvement, efficiencies, making
sure that things are working well all the time. And if they're not,
where are the gaps, where are the risks? How can we fill those
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com. And it's an interesting segue that you mentioned, because you said you
know the processes and in in inefficiencies, and so when I hear those two
words, where that starts to lead me to is to scale. And so
what I'm curious about, then, is what have you found to be the
best ways to create marketing operations strategies that do scale? Uh So, in
other words, you know what have been, in your career, some of
the keys to the success in this area, like, is it Martech platforms?
You talked about repeatable processes, or or effishient processes. You know,
is it the team? Is it, you know, the right market timing,
being in the right place at the right time? Are there even other
factors? So what are your what are your thoughts in terms of, you
know, building strategies at scale? Yeah, it's an evolution, right,
not a revolution. And so for me, what I have what I have
witnessed and experienced, is that there's a couple of key things on the front
end that really make things on the back end flow smoothly. Number one is,
and this is across both area and both organizations that I've worked for,
is breaking down barriers. Right, many, many organizations still operate with a
silo mentality. They talked about they don't want to do that. Oh No,
no, no, we we are collaborative, we are cross functional,
lots of stakeholders. Were all in this together, but in the day to
day you end up finding out that sales is here, marketing is here,
you know, operations is here, compliance is here, and that's just difficult
to make sure that you are checking all the boxes and you're scaling up correctly
for the things that need to be done to grow the business. And so,
luckily, and having a sales background and just being able to break down
some of these barriers. Not Everybody that's in, you know, the corporate
setting has the understanding and background of what it's like to be a human right
to understand that. You know, you and I may do different things in
this organization, but inevitably we're going to cross over. So we need to
work together. Let's stop sending each other fifteen emails a day. How about
let's talk face to face, pick up the phone and call me. It's
amazing. It is amazing to me, Glenn. I've seen it over and
over again. Mark. We have this problem with this process. We need
to grow this, we need to grow that, but man, I just
can't get this individual to respond to me or this person will get back to
me and tell me what I need. And I, you know, look
at this email and there's, you know, twenty five emails back and forth,
Ping, Ping, Ping, Ping, Ping. I said, well,
have you picked up the phone and called them? Where do they sit?
Are they in the building? Let's go. Problem solved. It's amazing
to me and still to this day. I mean I think it's even worse
now in some ways with the social media. Everyone's got their phone and the
texting, and I see it with my kids. You know that it's hard
for them to have a face to face conversation. Sometimes we have to slap
the phone out of their hands and UH so. So I think that when
it comes to scaling, it's important that we re established sort of the human
parameter. That's an important piece of this, so that everybody says Ah,
these okay, we can all get along. The next step is, okay,
where do all of these processes come together right? There has to be
a very good elucidation from the leadership, typically in operations, that says okay,
well, compliance and sales and brand all come together in these three areas
right. And if we make that stronger, that's going to scale up our
business. That's going to generate more revenue for us, more leads, more
capabilities for the sales phone. So that's the second piece. The third pieces
how do we track it right? How do we keep the data straight?
And this is the one where I find myself behind the eight ball, honestly.
Um, for me, the MARTEK stack right, that the stacking of
the technology. We don't have it. So many companies don't have it and
my previous organization had nothing to track anything. Um, my current organization has
some homemade things to track and they're not great. And I've been you know,
my boss and I talked about all the time. So one of my
objectives right now, I'm going through this process right now, is to understand
where organizations, and I'll throw a name out there, I don't mind,
hubspot right I've been in I've been in deep conversations with them looking at all
their capabilities across not only brand marketing and marketing operations, but sales and customer
relationship management. They organizations like hubspot or companies like hubspot. They seem to
get that you have to find a way to capture everybody's information. You can
still segment it out any way you want to. You can slice and dice
that data all day long, but if you're not capturing everything, you have
no way to track. You don't know what's working. More importantly, you
don't know what's not working and when you talk about scale, the things that
aren't working are going to far overshadow the things that are working in most cases
because it magnifies. It does absolutely and so for me I'm deep diving in
a hubspot every day. I have another meeting with them next week. I'm
actually pretty excited. I will be a hubspot certified champions soon. So there's
your there's a shout out hubspot. Well, for you well. But you
know, you talked a little bit about, you know, how you work
together, you know, across an organization. You know, just instead of
sending, you know, the email, just walk over and just ask a
question, uh, you know, or just, you know, meet with
someone. That's really key. But then the data that you're talking about,
I'm also curious about your view in your experiences about also, you know,
reporting to executive management. You know. So if you we've talked about sort
of the lateral, but let's also talk about going up. So, you
know, obviously having the data to your point. If you don't have the
data, that's obviously one of the key things is getting the data. But
assuming you have the data and you are tracking certain you know, key metrics,
you know what some of the rule of thumbs that you use to ensure
that you're presenting the most important or the most relevant information to senior management.
That's a great ask. So you know, not all executives are built the
same right. Some folks want to see graphs and charts. They all want
to see the hockey stick, right. I want to see the ocously.
Everybody wants to see that. But you know, some folks are just data
house right. I'm a data houck and and that's so for me, that's
a comfort zone. I don't mind deep diving Um, but some folks want
to see pretty pictures and flowy presentation ends and lots of exciting graphics. And
so first of all you have to know your audience. That's the first thing,
right, if you'RE gonna if you're gonna send stuff up the chain,
make sure you know who's going to be in the room. What is it
that are their hot points, their triggers, and make sure you're speaking to
the right folks on the right way. That's the first thing for me when
it comes to collating this data and making sure that I'm putting together a presentation
that really touches on the high points. I mean there's some there's some things
that go over to over the top all the time. If it's making money,
then folks want to see it. So I'm much driving revenue. Let's
let's give that it's it's due. On on the presentation number one. Number
two, Um, we talked earlier about managing risk. Right, CEO,
C suite, individuals, good Lord, they do not want to talk about
when they don't want to hear about another risky endeavor. Right. That that,
you know, where are we going to get killed next year from that,
you know agency or that agency, because we haven't done these things correct
so make sure that there's a touch always on you know, here's where a
compliance status is. Here are the things that we've analyzed and said, you
know, we're pretty good here. We know there's a lot of oversight in
these areas. We're okay, but there's still one or two, no more
than three, things that we've got to work on and and here are some
ways that we get there. So you got to touch on that too.
So it's revenue, it's compliance and risk and it's also operational efficiency. There's
always got to be a plug for that. And the reason there has to
be a plug for it. It's not the most sexy thing. I think
it's sexy, not everybody does. Not everyone gets jazzed up to say the
process is so super smooth. Now way to go to mark. It has
to be out there. If we don't plug for it. Then people quickly
forget. They look at the hockey stick and they look at the compliance issues
and that's it. Presentations over, you've got to give a plug for how
did we get here? What are we doing to get better? How can
we continue to grow this business in the right way with these different avenues and
things to think about? Not all of them are gonna work, but here
are the things that we should be considering. Wise Advice, excellent. Well
Mark. Before we wrap up today's episode, what is the main takeaway that
you want to leave our audience with in understanding the challenges facing marketing operations executives
today? We'll go ahead. First of all, thank you for the time
today. I really appreciate it and and I've given this one some thought.
You know what, not that anyone is approaching me asking people marketing operations advice,
not yet, but the thing that I have experienced, and I'm still
experiencing it now, six, seven years later, marketing operations changes all the
time. Right, what? What my role? What my the definition of
my particular role when I stepped into marketing operations is so different now from what
it was done. Right. Um, there's always things being added and taken
out. We talked about, you know, tracking of data and making sure
that we've got a process flow that makes sense. Can we've people accountable?
Can we assign individuals to be responsible, so it's not just out there floating
in the ether that we hope projects get done, get done on time and
get done under budget? So I think that being flexible is so important,
right, which is why having a sales background, I think, is really
good for this type of role, because you have to be nimble. Have
to be Nimble. secondarily to that, got to stay sharp, and that
means looking to do things that are outside of the comfort zone, that are
outside of the wheelhouse. And you know, for me it's it's diving into
the data and making sure that we're tracking these processes sufficiently. Um. And
then the final thing I would encourage people to keep in mind and, you
know, use as they progress their career is that there's always a need for
people who understand how operations fits into the business. Right. It's it's not.
It's not just look at the SPREADSHEET, pick out a few numbers that
look good, pick out a few that look bad and then work back from
there. There's so much more to it. There's so many different nuances and
the interaction that being in an operations, specifically marketing operations, were all the
interactions that you're granted access to are invaluable. You will definitely have touch points
across whatever organization you're working for if you go into this role. If that's
something that gets you excited, jump into marketing operations, come join me.
Well, that's excellent. Well, that wraps up this episode of the art
of marketing operations. Thank you so much for joining us today. Mark.
Yes, Glenn, thank you very much. It's been my pleasure. I've
really enjoyed this time together. Thank you for listening to the art of marketing
operations, brought to you by Taylor. Don't forget to hit subscribe in your
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share. Until next time,