Welcome to the art of marketing operations, a tailor podcast. Here you can
grow your knowledge about marketing operations, listen to ideas and strategies to help you
scale, grow and optimize your efficiency, drive your speed to market and enrich
your work life. Let's get to it. Welcome to the art of marketing
operations, a tailor podcast. I'm Glenn Bottomly, and today my guest is
Rick Siegfried, director of marketing operations at Farmers Business Network, an organization dedicated
to helping family farmers maximize their farms profit potential with a data and technology enabled
direct to farm commerce, community and sustainability platform that redefines value and convenience.
Thanks for joining me today, Rick, yes, thank you so much for
that kind introduction. It is awesome to be here, very good. Um,
excited to discuss the art of marketing operations. Thank you, Rick.
Well, before we get started, let's talk about one of yours and my
personal passions, and that is being a drummer and a musician. So can
you tell us a little bit about your interest in drums and how you get
time for all of that with work and family? Yeah, it's uh,
it's rough. I've been playing drums for going on the past twenty five years.
Been in various local signed touring bands, mostly metal, in the Chicago
and San Francisco Bay area, for the past twenty three so most of my
life. You know, it's a huge part of WHO I am. It's
my soul, creative outlet. But in the end, and it's always been
this way, it's my number two priority in life. Family has always been
number one. There have been times, and you know, anytime there's a
question of my music versus my family, I will blindly and of the time
choose my family and that has never, you know, steered me wrong.
I was in a I was actually in a pretty successful band signed to a
well known independent label. Just booked a natural national tour after a few really
good west coast runs, was sponsored by Pearl Drums, and I did not
hesitate to quit the band actually while on tour. Um, I've finished the
tour, obviously, but when I got the call that my wife got into
a masters program at northwestern so I didn't even think about it. Right.
I'm done with this, like going with my wife to or my girlfriend at
the time, wife now Um, which is what brought me back to the
Chicago, Chicago area, where I currently am and I grew up. Uh,
and actually, coincidentally, Um, this is a timely question as this
past weekend I actually quit my current band, my most recent band, because
I have my second child being born on March. When you list currently,
that is in five days, Um, but when you listen to this,
that might be in the past, I don't know. But regardless, second
child being born and I just knew I'd be a bad member. Canceling practice,
I know shows uh, they're a good band. They deserve better than
that. So, Um, you know, I'll always drum, but I'll
always be a father and husband, Um, you know, and make the
decisions that I need to make to prioritize that. Not that one can be,
you know, a good, you know, employee and family member and
still be a professional musician. Um, just the instance has never worked out
in my favor for that. Well, congratulations on your new child coming soon.
That's that's wonderful. Thank you. A life right now is a little
chaotic, but you know when, isn't that exactly? Well, let's let's
now move over to marketing operations. So, Rick, when, when you
and I chatted last, you had told me that you were born and raised
in marketing operations. I love that phrase, born and raised in marketing operations.
So, given that many marketing operations executives have just, you know,
started to grow in this field and move into this field, can you just
describe a bit about your history and marketing operations and really sort of how your
career developed, you know, in this yeah, Um, well, my
career really started in Um, prior to that, you know, I had
moved to Palo Alto from Chicago area, from Aurora, back in to work
for a PR firm after I just graduated college. It got sold. Six
months later the office closed and my aunt just and like you know, helped
me out, introduced me to an old friend of hers who happened to be
the VP of business business development at Marcato. Got An interview for a demand
generation position and, you know, started in February of working at Marcato,
top marketing automation company, Software Platform. and Um, I wasn't paid to
say that. UH, being on the marketing team at Marcato, it really
meant that you had to know Marcato, and actually not to Marcato, but
like marketing technology inside and out. We were the face of the company.
It was up to us to demo by example everything that, you know,
we did, all of the tactics we used were supposedly seen as the,
you know, best in breed. So we had to show off how Marcato
can enable a marketing team to plan, build, execute, analyze, um
and pretty much optimized endlessly for every program across every channel. and honestly,
like you know, my first job out of college was a PR firm,
but it's like I didn't really feel like that was my true calling. I
don't view that as when my career really started. I felt like I I
began my true journey, my true career, drowning in purple marketing automation,
and I know that sort of it's like a unique path that one can take
right now, because most marketing automation companies, you know, are like,
you know, set the the stage has been set. You know it's Marcato,
there's UH Aliqua hubspot part of active campaign. Um that, you know,
a newer player in the field, and you know a few others,
um but I mean more're gonna pop up, but generally, like the big
players are there. So starting unquote, starting off on the ground floor,
what have you. Is Difficult, but it's still something that can be done.
You one can still be, quote unquote, you know, born and
raised in marketing operations. I think it really just takes starting, you know,
starting somewhere where the marketing team and the marketing leadership it's it's it goes
all the way up to leadership is, you know, invested and willing to
invest in marketing technology, and often it is just being thrown into the deep
end and having to learn new tools, you know, at the drop of
a hat. But Um, there has to be that hunger. Like somebody
can't just fall into marketing operations. It's not just like something like, Um,
you know, nothing else really works, so I'm just gonna be in
mops. A good successful marketing operations, you know, be them, you
know, a coordinator specialist early on in their career, up to a,
you know, vp of revenue ops, which is, you know, a
whole different mindset that we might get too later on. You have to want
to learn and understand more about marketing technology. You don't just want to like
use it and you want to use it to the best of its abilities,
but at the same time not just like okay, I'm going to drive a
tesla and drive it super fast and charge it and it's gonna be Great.
You want to know how it's working. What is the battery actually doing?
What what parts are? Is connected to a better analogy or metaphor would probably
be like an actual mechanic car, because you know, talk more about the
engine and the different parts and all of that. But regardless, you need
to want to know. You don't have to be you shouldn't have to be
told. You know, go figure out how that works. You need to
like have a hunger to dig in and look at the integrations, look how
data is mapped and understand why reports are showing what they are. You need
to be ready to just hop into a room with the C suite, with
the board, and when they ask about like where is that pipeline number coming
from? What does that like? When you say that that's a page channel,
what the Hell does that mean? You need to be able to answer
those questions confidently and if you know somebody really wants you need to get into
the weeds, but often they don't and like one of the one of the
issues that opts people Um. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but we
like getting in the weeds, like we have that hunger. So sometimes we
do tend to ramble and get off on tangents and get two in depth,
but that's sort of part, like that's the I t blood and us that's
a support blood, that's the security team blood, like we need. You
know, like I said, and I'm probably, you know, beating a
dead horse, you want the details, you've got to be hungry for it
and you naturally you have to remind yourself and not everyone is hungry for it.
So you don't necessarily want to, you know, over Um bore anyone
by, you know, getting to two into the weeds and then it sort
of can just end up sounding like, you know, Gibb or Jabber to
them and you actually don't really end up answering any questions. Then you get
pulled into more meetings about more meetings and end up getting nothing done. What
has been the changes that you've seen? If you think back to, you
know, how you marketed to prospects, you know, five, ten years
ago, compared to how you're marketing to them today, how would you describe
some of the some of those big differences? Unfortunately, it I mean,
that's a really good segue. Like ten years ago, every it felt like
everyone in marketing wanted to know everything about new Martek, about new martech tools
in the market. There was just a feeding, like absolute feeding frenzy,
for new ways to think about marketing strategy and technology and how to report on
things. And you know, you know if there was this realization, this
new realization, that like marketing technology, and you know this is the most
cliche thing in the world, but you know, like we had a seat
at the revenue table. Marketing is a seat at the revenue table because this
new martek sergeants enabled marketers to prove that. So everyone wanted to be a
part of it. So, and I mean, I know you might be
saying like more and it's just because you worked at Marcato, but you know,
I go to all type of B Two B marketing events around the world
and it didn't really matter who you were, you know, if you were
in demand generation, even though there was typically the most hungry or product marketing,
creative, you are whatever, like people and marketing were just interested in
the technology, what it could enable them to do. What could it enable
them to do? And that's that's one of the key other changes. There
is an interest and a hunger for them to be able to do with the
people who had interests. They wanted to do it, people wanted to get
in and be exposed, and I feel like that's sort of been lost in
a lot of ways. Now, Um, those people who where it was
everyone's hungry. Now it's just sort of the OPS people that seemed hungry,
and it might just be my perception. I did move out of Martek and,
you know, into the security software and now I'm in Ag Tech,
but it does across the board. taught like you know, being connected with
different marketing communities. It does feel the percentage of a marketing team that's,
you know, interested in new technology, in new strategies and actually like caring
about it, it's been diminishing, and I mean that might just be the
nature of tech. You know, it was a big fat Martek, you
know, at a big you know, it's bubble, it's surgeons, and
now it's just something that you know, everyone knows is needed, but you
know, only a few like really are interested in being involved in understanding.
You know everyone knows why it's needed, but understanding, you know what it
is and what why it's able to why it's needed. Like everyone knows,
like I said, everyone knows that it's needed. But why is? Why
are these tools? What can they do, and understanding what they do to
answer those business questions that often the you know c suite, the you know
exects the LT executive leadership, leadership team, don't even know how to ask.
So you have to understand all the data that's available. And I'm going
off on a tangent and I don't even know if it's connected. We were
asking but being able to interpret what leadership is asking for, because a lot
of times again, they don't really know, they're just sort of asking for
numbers and words. Interpret that into actual deliverable results. Um Well, and
I think that that's really a really key term interpret because I think, I
really think, and I think we've heard it many times from our from guests
on this podcast, Um in, and also in personal experience as well,
is, you know, interpretation, interpretation of data, interpretation of reports,
interpretation of behavior, interpretation of insights. That is really really such a key
aspect of the marketing operations executive and teams responsibilities because, to your point,
we have such exposure to information, such a massive amount of Aida that we
can get and it just gets compounded as you add more to the MARTEK stack.
There's another whole set of reports, there's another whole set of reports,
and so all of that really becomes this cacophony of of data that how do
you how do you make sense out of that? So I think your comment
about interpreting, interpreting and interpretation is really really key. But can I flip
the conversation now a little bit and talk a little bit about speed, because
I think to your point, you know, an executive leadership team, senior
management in an organization, they're going to constantly be wanting more information, faster,
faster results, faster r o I, etcetera. So, in your
opinion, what aspects of marketing operations do you feel are just not moving fast
enough? In other words, is it you know? Do you think it's
maybe specific software development from vendors, or maybe it's industry legislation or some regulations
of some sort? You know, in other words, what what do you
wish would change in the industry that would allow you to do your job faster?
Yeah, and that ties well, you know, like the executive leadership
team, like you said, is they're always gonna want more data and the
interpretation of that data is important and that is tied to why, you know,
revenue ops, marketing ops professionals need to be there and have that seat
to the table, or at least whoever is they're presenting the data needs to
have a basic understanding on it, and that's one of the issues and that's
one of the things that's not moving fast enough companies having a more revenue ops
mindset. That like marketing ops, is definitely marketing ops. It's you know,
it's always going to exist. It's always going to be marketing operations.
Sales ops is always going to be sales opicser is always going to be sales
opera rations, but there needs to be this revenue operations mindset that umbrellas and
ties the two together. And there's too much red tape, and I mean
also red timement might not be the right term, but there's too much bottlenecking
in terms of, you know, getting that connection between the marketing operations team,
which a lot of the times often might get thrown just onto one of
the you know, people in demand Gen so they don't necessarily have that exposure
to the ops side. The sales operations team might just be someone in it,
and that's a crazy concept. I T owning salesforce or whatever crm or
outbound sales tool you've used, but it happens. I speak from experience.
It happens, and that is that just won't work. Marketing ops and sales
ops, whether you have them on the same team together and a revenue operations
team, or you have them, you know, separated. They regardless need
to be, you know, in constant communication. You should be like on
meetings or working on things that involve both teams constantly, because very rarely does
something change in marketing ops that doesn't affect sales ops and vice versa, and
that's where a lot of time stuck can happen and that's why things don't move
fast enough. That's why, there you are always under the gun because you
spend so much time coordinating between marketing ops and sales ops around data cleansing and,
you know, making sure all the numbers are in line, that it
is always a fire drill to get some of these numbers. Another sort of
you know, you sort of asked about two things. The you know what's
in the industry, and marketing operations you know what's not moving fast enough.
But also, uh, the the your question about software development from vendors,
and I'm flabber gas and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it is being done where
in terms of software development, these MARTEK companies need to get more input from
actual marketing operations personnel on the USABILITY, the connectivity of their product because,
I say the most Corny cliche phrase ever, in today's digital landscape, if
your tool cannot seamlessly integrate with other key tools, it is obsolete. Hate
today's digital landscapes. It's ridiculous. That was a nice commercial place. Yeah,
exactly. Yeah, I do voiceovers too. No, I don't,
but I will. Yeah, don't just take some use cases. Uh,
you know, have a customer focus group, you feed you some use cases,
product team goes and solves those use cases and then released to the product.
That's not gonna work. You develop something that you think solve the use
cases or develop along with constant feedback with marketing operations professionals totally along the way
in terms of you know, how how usable is it? Is this going
to solve actually what we need, what we want, and I mean this
honestly, is probably goes across a lot of software, types of software,
but especially in Martek. Develop and test your software with your own marketing teams.
If you haven't proven that your new release or new product union feature doesn't
work internally, that you can't use your own marketing to run it, then
it's probably not ready to be released. You know, wide range. You
need to do that real life Qa and there might be arguments. Oh,
you know, we can't just release it to you and not to everyone.
It's you know, any one who's paid or has this type of account or
is on this pod or something. And unfortunately this is one of those areas
where marketing ops people also have to kind of bring the hammer down just say,
okay, tough, deal with it, fix it, make it work.
If this is a Martech company, if you can enable your internal team
to test her tools, then go work somewhere else, because you need to
enable the marketing team to use the tools that you're developing. Otherwise you're gonna
at least crap into the market and people are gonna get pissed. So well,
yeah, in in this this notion of use cases, I think this
is a really um it's a good point because you know, there are particularly
in marketing operations, and I think you're in a really unique space right now
because right now you have sort of the unique opportunity to market, to be
to be prospects and all of those use cases around B two B, but
there's also a B two C component in your current role as well. So
can you talk a little bit about the differences between the two approaches in terms
of how you look at marketing operations in a B two B context as well
as a B twoc context and some of the similarities you know around that as
well as you know, are there some constraints that you have found that you
have to sort of work around and contend with with one versus the other?
Yeah, like as like marketing technology sort of started off B two B.
Um. There's still B two C Martek out there. Obviously it can still
be used in a B two C world, but historically, and that's changing,
this is changing. I realized that. But big advancements and that like
surge and hunger for marketing technology has been very B two B focused. It's
sort of started in the B two B world. So there are more B
two C use cases for advanced, you know, tools like Marcato but a
lot of B twoc. You know, companies and you know systems are still
using you know, like mail Champer, you know, constant contact. Huge
companies are using these, you know a little bit smaller vendors, and it
might be because they don't necessarily need something more advanced. This is weird,
but it's one of those things where you don't think you need it because you
don't realize that you need it. One of the fortunate components or aspects of
the situation I'm in is that, yes, it's a B two B model,
a B two B company, but there is that B twoc component and
that B two c. The fact that we're a B two B company means
that there is that hunger and that desire for uh, you know, the
newest best marketing technology and building a great martek stack. And it's a unique
position because we have that and we also have the need to use that advanced
tech stack to solve the B two C problems. And one of the difficulties
in that is that a lot of you know, classic B twoc infrastructure wasn't
built with kind of B two be like some of the more advanced Martek and
you know, marketing strategies in mind and they're still even is. You know
people that think that a B M account based marketing is relevant to B two,
C and one could argue you could leverage it, it could be done.
I feel like it would be possible to do some a B M With
B two, C H and like sort of envisioning like each family is an
account Um. Then you have you know, are able to. It would
be difficult to sort of target specific accounts based on, you know, family
data, because there's no like Zoom Info for family data that I know of,
and that might get pretty creepy. But you know, Martek unfortunately started
out being creepy. I mean the initial thought of like, Oh my God,
you're tracking my behavior online, you're like tracking what I click on and
what I'm visiting, like, what the Heck, like invasion of privacy.
But now everyone's used to that and some people embrace it, some people hate
it. Still, like I love the idea that my phone's listening to me
and I get relevant ads. I don't want ads that aren't relevant to me.
I don't care to see an advertisement for something that I that just paid
to get my attention. I want something that is in some way relevant and
if that means that they are listening to what I'm talking about promising. I'm
not talking about any you know, illegal spy tresion, Russian whatever. Awkward
timing with that comment, but Um, regardless, no, I love marketing
technology. I don't view a lot of it as an invasion of privacy.
Um, there's probably a lot of people are probably turning this off right now,
like, Oh, this guy's a crackpop but regardless, I think it's
great and the more people embrace it, the better BBC companies will be able
to to market and that will help in a lot of ways. Like a
lot of mom and pop shops, like small businesses. There are B two
B ones, but there'll also be two C one and a lot of those
small businesses, like I have some pretty old school marketing and they could really
use technology. Yeah, one of my like my dream, quote unquote,
is, you know, one day retire and then open up my own restaurant,
like brewery pub. My brother Bruce Beer for a new Belgium um Sall
seal them away and then have them, you know, start a brewery with
me on a restaurant, but then also have have the most advanced Martek stack
and like amazing marketing just for this single like restaurant and, you know,
just do the coolest stuff with B twoc. That's possible. I know that
might seem unrealistic. Some of this Martech can get pretty pricey, but you
know, that's what dreams are for. No, that's good. That's good.
Well, and you know how you've talked a bit about Martek Stack,
so let's let's stay on that for a second. So how do you how
do you generally approach building and balancing a Martek Stack? And, you know,
how do you ensure that they're the tools are all working together and you're
not sort of missing any gaps? You know from from a stack perspective?
Yeah, Um, it's important not to like just go out and buy everything,
like, Oh, I hear a B M School, I'm gonna go
buy some a B M. I hear Ai School, I'm gonna go buy
some Ai. I want some predictive analytics. Blah, blah, blah,
Blah Blah. You don't want to just blindly install new tools. And this
happens all the time. You get somebody on the MANAGIN team or on the
sales team reaching out like Oh, I saw this cool new uh plug in
that, you know, tracks outbound sales, qr code, whatever. You
know. Can we install trial? Can we like? It's only so dollars
a month, which you know, which I know, is completely within budget.
That's totally fine. We could theoretically do this install and implement it within
a week. But you can't do that. What you need to take.
Okay, what problem is to solving? You do you realize we can actually
solve this with some other tool that we already have? So when people come
at you demanding things, and that's what that it ties back to marketing operations
being underfunded underutilized, like, Oh yeah, we have marketing operations covered.
We hired this dude to do mops and, you know, not putting any
investment and it passed growing the team with one person. So you're slam mops.
Teams are always slammed and busy and it might seem a lot easier to
just okay, you know, shut somebody up by buying something and given it
to them. But you plug in one thing to salesforce and that tool has
power over one little field. Them editing that field could break so many things
down stream in terms of reporting and attribution that you never would have thought of
because of some wacky infrastructure, you know, field mapping. That happens.
That may not make sense to the layman but for some whatever reason, you
know it's it's there. So it's important, you know, not to give
everyone keys to the castle to that point where you know, okay, I'm
just going to implement and Um install every tool and just let people run them
UK. But it's also important to let them get into it and play.
Not necessarily play, but like test out. You know what's going on at
this new tool that got installed, that passed the mops q a. it's
not going to break it anything using it. I've been given documentation and training
on how internally we should use it at this company. Let's try it out.
But so it's important to give them that ability so that they can understand
what's possible and not think that, like, the only things that are able
to be done are what's marketing, what the marketing operations team is telling me,
because that's not always the case. I mean other I mean you don't
always have all the time in the world to pick apart every single piece of
functionality a tool has. So even if giving somebody like minimal access, they
start using, you know, a sales outbound tool or, you know,
Um ut m generator, whatever it may be, a B M tool,
amount of deliverability, and, you know, they see something that we might
not have paid for or they might not have access to, their interests it
in, they google it and, you know, look at some knowledge based
articles and then they bring this speech or to you like hey, we should
look into this, and it's like wow, good point. So it might
sound like I'm always saying Oh, mobstably only people that should know what's going
on, but you can get some good ideas from, you know, other
team members if they have access to the tools. So these these mops professionals
who, you know, keep the keys to the kingdom to themselves. Don't
want anyone else to log into Marcato. Don't want anyone else anywhere like you.
Just give me your docs and I'll make sure it goes out, like
submitting a google doc or Google sheet for everything. And, like the marketing
team, have no idea what's going on in the back end like that.
That's not scalable. Like well, in it and it and it feels like
with what you're describing is Um, you know, you've got to really know
what's in your Martek stack and don't just blindly add a new techno oology.
Uh, it's you've got to sort of really deeply understand what is it that
you're actually getting, because there could absolutely be redundancies that you know. You
know, instead of buying that new tool that maybe is presenting a feature in
a certain way, but you may actually already have that feature, you know,
already with an existing tool. So you know, Rick, has there
been sort of a change that you have made to your marketing operations approaches?
You know over the years in your career or something maybe that you've made a
change that you've made recently that you've really found has has made the biggest impact
on accelerating sales growth? I think, you know, I've spoken to being
more connected with marketing and sales and making that revenue off operations mindset shift.
You know, I was talking to marketing ops and sales ops being on separate
teams or being on the same team, just making sure they're aligned. I
was put into place where I, you know, I was on the marketing
team and marketing operations and then marketing operations moved to being under the operations,
global operations team and was sort of just on the same team with sales operations
and sales enablement. So this was, you know, I guess I'd thrown
into the deep ends, like, okay, I'm on the marketing team.
What do you mean? I'm on the OPS team. I like my I'm,
you know, working straight with like specifically with sales ops and sales enablement.
What's going on? But I quickly realized that was not the case at
all. You know, it doesn't have to change how you meet your goals
and what you do to meet your goals, being on, you know,
being on the OPS team, being on the marketing team, it really doesn't
matter. It's just like it. So that's sort of just politick e like.
You know, what matters is that you're getting the job done, you're
talking to who you need to talk to you, regardless of what team they're
on. And having that revenue operations mindset pretty much means that you understand that
being in lockstep with sales operations is key to your growth, in your success.
And I say that assuming that you realize that you need to be in
lock step with marketing team to and you know marketing programs and all that sort
of stuff like that's just sure assumed in marketing operations, but sales operations and
sales enablement side as well. The more, the more this whole revenue operations
mindset comes about and, you know, migrates throughout the you know, this
world, this digital landscape, the more you're going to not just have to
train marketing people, you're not just going to have to provide documentation to marketing
people, but you need to get a line with sales enablement and train sales.
I predict that eventually they're going to be marketing enablement teams. Right now
marketing, uh, you know, their sales operations and their sales enablement.
Right now there's just marketing operations, and marketing operations is often, you know,
in charge of training and in charge of onboarding new marketers. I believe,
I you know, I think that there are going to be organmented.
Maybe there already are, but I like the idea of having a marketing enablement
person, a marketing enablement team, whatever it may be, but somebody who's
dedicated to just that training, that Um, documentation, onboarding new marketers so
that everyone has, you know, access to all the tools they need,
because right now also, it's sort of you don't know what somebody what,
you don't have access to, until you need it and it's just like Oh,
yeah, I gotta, you know, go find them ops person and
have them, you know, assign me a license to this tool or what
have you having a really sinc tight process for bringing on new members. Yeah,
well, in it and it feels like the type of tight integration that
you need in a Martek stack. What I'm hearing from you is you also
need that tight integration with your teams, tight integration with sales, tight integration
with sales ops, with revenue ops, with your sales enablement, uh you
know, marketing teams, creative content. It just, you know, you
don't want to be working in a you know, in a vacuum or in
a silo. Uh You know. The more that you can understand their their
challenges, how they are measured, Um, how you can actually Um,
you know, integrate better, that's going to be key. So I know
we started the call or this podcast talking about that. You're a drummer and
so as a drummer, you obviously love entertaining, you know, live performance,
and obviously you have your favorite brand bands and drummers who inspire you tobe,
you know, Improve Your own personal musicianship? But in marketing operations,
who or what inspires you to improve your marketing operation skills? As as comes,
this really comes from being born and bred in marketing operations. I came
from Marcato. I can't suck. If I suck, that ruins Marcato's credibility
in seven years of blood, sweat and tears that I poured into that purple
place, and I really that logic doesn't make any sense. I would never
tell anyone that that's the mindset they should have, and it's really, you
know, harsh on myself, but you know I'm a, you know,
masochist. So I suppose that's what inspires me not disappointing what I believe in,
not being a disappointment to what like the highest ideal that I hold in
marketing operations, and that's marketing first. Yeah, I love that excellent advice.
So, Rick, as we wrap up today's episode, What's the one
takeaway that you want to leave our audience with about your extensive experience in marketing
operations? Marketing operations is is not just marketing, not just marketing operations.
You, you marketing operations personnel out there, you listening to this, what
have you? You are marketings, I t team, their support team,
their security department, all in one. What you say goes. They don't
follow your processes. Make them. There's no one way to do that,
but you make them. You prove to them that you are right. You
are Jack Bowers, and that might be a little bit of a dated reference,
but I essentially do whatever for yeah, for do whatever it takes,
side from torture, to get the job done, and get it well done,
well from whoever you need it from. If people don't listen to you,
make them listen well, Rick, thank you so much, but this
wraps up this episode the art of Marketing Operations. Thank you so much for
joining us today, rick, and until next time, stay safe, take
care, and thank you all for listening. Thank you. Are you struggling
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