Welcome to the art of marketing operations, a tailor podcast here you
can grow your knowledge about marketing operations, listen to ideas and
strategies to help you scale, grow and optimize. Your efficiency drive your
speed to market and enrich your work life. Let's get to it.
Welcome to the art of marketing operations, a Taylor podcast, I'm Glen
bottomly and today my guest is Daniel Balestra Vice President of marketing
operations, thanks for joining me today, Danielle! Oh, it's all my pleasure
thanks Glens! Well, it's it's a pleasure having you on our podcast, so
Danielle to start off. I am pleased to share with our audience that you have
earned a number of awards in your career. Most recently, you were named a
fearless fifty marketer, a marquette champion, a rising star woman in media
and a Marquet rebbi finalist. What has been the key to your success? I'm a
very driven person and I'm very intellectually curious, so trying to
get to a successful results, all the time and being surrounded by some
really great people. So you know it's about your network as well as the drive
and I'm very fortunate that I've had people that are just amazing to work
with, and people that celebrate our successes together to give me these
honors, so
it really has been a blessing to be surrounded by such great people. Oh,
that's! Wonderful! Well, congratulations on all the ords! It's
fantastic! So happy that you're here now Daniel about a third of your career.
I know- and we chatted before- has been working in marketing operations and a
good portion of that time has been in building and maximizing Martek stacks
for your organizations. So what have you found to be the most difficult
aspect of optimizing? A ARTETA data data can be the biggest problem you
will ever have, and sometimes it will be. Just where is the data? Is the data
centralized in a system that these SASCO technologies can use and that's
an assumption that you're using something that needs First Party
information?
The other thing, if you're not worrying about that and it might be an anonymous
platform such as web- is the compatibility between those different
technologies such as your analytic tools, your websites and then back down
to then these first party technologies. So you know I, depending on which model
your or stack you're trying to assemble. You can have some major problems there
when it comes to the data as well. You know if you're in a big enterprise,
sometimes you don't own all the data. So it's also then populis the idea of
centralizing the data so that marketing can help identify it spends and to
better strategize
how it wants to distribute its budget and have the most efficient marketing
messaging out in the market place. So getting that agreement and okay to
centralize a data is a break big thing. It's a very challenging thing to get
that approval and that could take months alone before you can even get it
into the tool. So, knowing what data you're going to need and as well as
making sure the formatting is consistent, so you know there might be
situations where technology needs you to have one record and one record for
all relationships or all products that that person could have, whereas the
centralized data systems might not be built that way, they might have many
relationships and many versions of that person. So there might be an exercise
of how do you simplify all this so that the two systems and tools can work
again? That can be months of conversations to decide the business
rules to then go forward with the technology
and then from the do. You feel that the business rules, as you just established,
is that sort of the key starting point for you to uncover the inefficiencies
in the in the stack or do you use other? Have you found other techniques to be
more effective in teasing out the inefficiencies? I think for the
inefficiencies it's about trying to find out what you're trying to get to
and like t? What are we trying to solve with this technology? Is it a full
technology? Is it a better use of the technology in hand? Is it this need to
centralize the data,
and then you know
another big thing: it was an inefficiency is: Do we have a way that
can communicate between the apples, oranges and grapes, N of all these
systems, the one person so have we decided on a centralized idea that we
can use across all systems. So all that's additional business rules, but a
big starting point is: why are we investing in this technology? What are
we trying to get from? It can any of the tools we currently have do it and
what? Why can our tools right now do it? So is it really that they don't have
that functionality or do we need to to pull this new technology and, and can
it work? The biggest other thing is depending on your size of your
organization. There might be information security protocols that you
need to follow and that can add big pressure on the investment, because if
the technology is going to connect by something simple like an API,
when you might have security protocols over those API s, that might render it
inefficient or not going to work or could end up having additional build
time. That was unexpected, because these are things you were as a marketer
and not aware of, but your information security teams very aware of so
depending on the size of your org, you might need to include information
security very early on to find out what they're going to need and what
restrictions they might put on the technology if it's coming from a more
open source, a Pi type of environment. That's a that's, a very interesting
insight that I think is going to resonate with our audience, because
this notion of a Martea platform that you purchase from from a vender who,
who you feel that's going to be the best thing for your marketing team to
connect with new customers in another implementation at another company. It
might work great, however, due to what you're saying in terms of your
information security procos from your it team, due to
some aspect of the market that you're going after there may be restrictions
that prevent you from maximizing the value that you could squeeze out of
that tool that another company may not face that challenge, but you could- and
so that's a really interesting piece that you just brought into this
equation- is making sure it's one thing to find and identify a artic stack ad
that you're going to bring into your organization into your marketing
efforts, but really checking with your it team for those information security
protocols. First to make sure that you're not going to have any
restrictions. That's going to limit the efficacy of that tool. I mean most
organization, marketers will know you know I had worked in healthcare and
I've also worked in banking when you're working inside those environments, the
data, that's inside those environments, are highly sensitive. You do not want
any of that information getting outside your environments and as we move into
cloud environments, there are extremely strong. You know systems we have to put
in place.
I sat in a conference years ago, Marquette Conference and one of the
people who spoke was about information security. The session didn't have that
many people and a colleague of mine was sitting there with me and we were just
shocked because we're like this is so important, but the way she was
explaining how mar text acts are not really vetted fully to be concerned
about information security and it's your data that you know. Some of these
things are built is minimal, viable products and you're, really the test
subject and when you're working with you know, patient information or
People's account information you do not want to put be the one to create a
ransom were or anything like that you have to be on top of it. So you know
you have to have a lot of very strong protocols in the review of the
technology you're thinking of bringing in to make sure it's one going to
deliver the value that you need and you're marketing so like you're, trying
to just continue to get your message of brand out there. It should not be to
the gettrn of your customers at all, regardless of the type of company you
are so getting. The minimal amount of data into these systems is key and then
making sure there's secure enough to not put anything in jeopardy, with your
data for your customers, yeah excellent advice, and so what have you found than
in your career in terms of when you're thinking about the Martea that you are
building? How long do you typically work with a specific tool or a platform
before you say,
I'm going to fish or cut bait here, and I'm either going to keep this tool?
This is still providing value or I'm going to jettison this from the mar
text, tack and replace it with something else. What are the key
determining factors for you to make that decision? One great example that
occurred to me was when I was working at a company called CFO. That was the
one time I inherited a lot of technology that was being tested to
just put in quote marks. So this was back and I want to say two thousand and
twelve, and one R of the products they were testing was a little thing called
Portat. This was before exact target purchased them. So at that time we had
to Montem on contract, to test it out, and I went in and started testing the
tool and one of the things we identified immediately was to put a
code on a Pixel on the page of the website. You needed to build a pixel
for each campaign and my web designer as well. My myself was just we thought
that was just unreasonable. The weight of all these tads on the website would
just kill us, so imagine having a tag per campaign, and you run a hundred
campaigns per year, give a hundred tags on your website just for the part OT
product. No, so we tried the system out for about two months and we dropped it.
We said no thank you. It has evolved. It is not the same product as it was
back in two thousand and twelve. So you know don't think of that's how part at
works today. It's not, but it was my experience of looking at a product
realizing immediately. It was not going to work for US across the Hole Artica
and deciding to let it go most other organism most other attacks. I've been
using have been established and we've decided on it in advance and it's gone
through a very excrucier cating betting process. So we need to have business
requirements. All the business. The users of the technology are there to
give us what exactly they're trying to accomplish from the technology.
How is it going to help? What are we going to try and get from it? Is it
reporting? Can it connect to the other reporting systems once all of that has
been vetted and we've reviewed the product and we've Demod the product and
we've even talked to customers who are using that product? We are happy, then,
to bring it in and start implementing it and having a very detailed plan
about roll out of the function, alleys and identifying what functionalities we
want to use and have a plan for getting that implemented M. No, that's! That's
wonderful! So, let's say on this line of data. In some of the the challenges
of data now, so I know that you have described marketing operations as
really uniquely different from other major aspects of marketing, brand
building, creative copy, writing, etc, because marketing operations has to
deal with such large quantities of data. But how have you found that you share
your findings? The data, the deliverables that your team brings to
the organization? How do you bring that back to the rest of the marketing team
and ultimately to the organization as a whole to leverage the data you have to
maximize overall success? So the way I like to describe the difference between
brand and marking operations is marge. Operations are really your contractors
and architects. They draw the plan out about how something should function,
whereas the brand folks or the interior designers, they get now a room and they
get to put the creative into that room. So, together we work together. We work
together to
figure out the way to get our message to the right audience
that will have the most impact and drive business forward.
One of the ways that work together brand can get a lot of information on
impressions and reach market operations you're now getting into the engagement.
How many people started to come to our website? How many people are clicking
through emails? How many people are engaging on social and then we help
connect that all the way down to your revenues, products opportunities
depending on your industry. So how did all those things actually impact
business? So you know a big thing we do. is we need to connect all those
different identifiers like we said earlier, and then we give that story
back to brand about what was working and what didn't. We were then able to
help them test. So you know maybe the design of the room didn't work. We need
to now change it up. So we have them, have this great data that they can put
their tests into market, and we can see how those engagements are adjusting and
changing over time. Yeah in the that feedback loop that you just described,
I mean that's a repetitive. You know daily weekly monthly on going
continuous process, I'm guessing correct! Absolutely so you can create
sort of a benchmark on how things are working from the beginning and then,
depending on, where you want to go. If you want to increase any of those items,
those engagements, then you have something you can measure towards. You
can even dive into again the data of the segmentation. So you know there was
this great name just recently on Linkedin of H, Prince Charles and Ozzy
Osbourne, and they have basically demographically the same profiles. So
you know: Rich Men live in castles born in the UK,
but if you think about what their interest are so different, so having
that engagement is so important to know that difference between those two
demographics again, our brand people have an easy time getting that
information and they are getting an easier time. Looking at interest,
because attack is evolved that much, but for us we're actually able to see
that from the anonymous assumptions what's really happening, is it
resonating with when they become known people? Are they really who they seem
to be on the web? Because again, the web has very tricky technologies. You
have cookies, you have multiple people using multiple devices. You have
multiple people using one device, so it's still never a hundred percent
clear they're getting closer and it's a little scary, but you know they're not
fully there yet so we have to work together with brand to say: okay, yes,
those were really you know the prince, Charles, as you wanted to talk to and
not really hit it out of the park. So let's keep going with that type of
messaging that the ozzy people didn't resonate. You might need to change how
you're approaching them m and then would you find or have you found that
the bench marking that you set up or that you establish, is it dependent on
the product and the product type? Or Do you feel that the bench marking is
dependent on the segment and the product together and that that's you're
establishing the product? So, for example, I've got market a going after
product a and that therefore, the combination of those two I announced
establishing a benchmark and then market B and product a same product,
different market that has a different benchmark. So talk to us a little bit
about the bench marking that you've established in the dependency on market
and products. So sometimes when you start off high right some organizations,
you can't get that low. One group I have work with. We do have those
segmentation, we did know the different relationship types we have with that.
So we had a base mark there. We were trying to get one level below it, but
we were lacking the data which was so critical to help them get to that next
place to say, okay, you know we know with the relationship type. We want to
go down to now the industry, so we can personalize messages further with
industry. So you know you do want to make sure when you have enough data to
do those levels of bench marks. Otherwise, because what can be a
challenge with product a and you have hopefully the one persona you might
find that there's three personas m product I, so you still need to keep
digging in deeper and deeper to make sure that that is not those assumptions.
These are all assumptions are right and that we are hitting the right people,
so you actually do want to look back into your products. If you can to see
what type of people organizations were purchasing. What was that makeup of
customers? What percentage of them were bringing the revenue when percentages
are net new and then, if you can get any demographic or in Piroghi type of
information from them to see a little bit more? That can then confirm the
assumptions you had about those personas inside those groups and make
sure everything works. Well, the beauty of a lot of this is there is so much
data around it's just making sure you have access to it and are able to come
back and then confirm things back to you. Your brand people yeah well- and I
know that you have said in the past, that customers have a need and that the
role of marketing operations is to find them and ultimately give them what they
what they want and need, and so, as you're talking about the personas and
finding those customers, what have you found to be the best way to do that in?
In other words, once you find those customers, how do you know if the
results that you're getting within your organization and Yourang operations are
simply success or, if you're, truly maximizing success? Again, it's more of
what I was talking about at the end here is to make sure the full funnel is
happening, make sure you're, seeing if it's you're going after net new net new
customers signing up. You need to see that there's a certain percentage
coming in all the time, because you're handing them in and are they marketing
source, so from all the bench marking we're doing up front. We know how many
people were reaching on the website. We know how many ads were having
impressions on. We know how many forms are reading filled out and we know how
many people are signing up to get news, letters or emails. How many of those
from those sources are have gotten all the way through the full funnel and are
getting t the success of the business? So there can't be a disconnection
between marketing and sales. We are partners and it's the whole
organization right everything's working together, we're like a human body.
There can't be one more predominant than the other. It won't work out,
everything's working together, so you have us all working together and if the
marketing Amastris look beautiful, but the sales is not good, some things
majorly wrong and you need to figure out where that disconnect is. Is it
that we just got all these things? That E re calling marketing qualified leads
just because of something?
Then you have to go back and talk to the sales folks and be like what
happened what's going on? Are we really profiling them wrong that they're not
qualified? What is success here? It can go deeper than just those two pieces
like you might even need to find out is the product alignment product
positioning correct is the way the sales talking about it. corect are the
sales and the marketing teams aware enough of what they're positioning are
they not selling enough for the benefits? Are they
say the wrong information? There could be problems in general, even just the
way we're operating, but it's important for everyone to get together. Look at
all matric to see what is really happening. There yeah very good. I let
switch gears here a little bit to talk a little bit more about the customers
themselves and the person is that you're talking about as you just
described so you know. I know that when you and I chatted before you feel that
direct communication with customers is really key for a marketing operation
team to succeed. I know that you know Steve Jobs was famous famously
described years and years ago as not wanting to talk to customers, because
they often would not be able to describe or articulate exactly what
they wanted. But you know that is a unique perspective, but from your
perspective, how do you maintain that direct communication with customers?
And how do you ultimately tease out the right information about your customers
so that you understand them better? So I think there might have been a little
misinterpretation on me, my part, but when a lot of people in mark operations
are managing the email channel and the email channel is a direct communication
to those customers with the time of year. We're in right now we're seeing a
complete abuse of this channel. I have been getting Inada ed with so much
stuff
that people, forgetting that they are given permission to talk to us in the
email channel, to send us a message that is hopefully relevant and do not
send eighteen emails about buying a bag of teeth like it's, it's unbelievable.
I feel bad for my colleagues and marketing email channels, because I'm
going to tell you we usually don't have a right to say no, because it's assume
that it's a free channel and that it's an easy way to reach people. You
automatically know who you're reaching and it's abused. It's horribly horribly
abused, and I know the people that are hitting send don't want to be doing
this. I know they take great pride in managing emails, knowing emails and
knowing that it's pissing people off because they see the metric. They see
the engagements they're, seeing the death like the open rates decrease,
they see the click throughs decreasing, and hopefully people are looking at
click, throughs, not just open rates, so you know it's it's probably one of
the most painful positions of ben is to be an AU marketer, but it's the most
important because that's you have a direct line to the customer. They are.
You are doing a one to one, but really it's one to thousands when you're
sending an email out and it's so important to be messaging them with
relevant information. I can't tell you when the last time a really great email
campaign I received has been it's been such a long time. The one that really
stood out for me years ago was when ghosty had a newsletter from their
chief legal officer. That would go into detail. I mean this thing was paragraph
long. It was so interesting about all the data and legal privacy laws that
are coming about and how it's impacting us as marketers. They did such an
extremely excellent job. They did sell themselves to Mozilla. So once that
happened, those newsletters went away, but it was such a well done relevant
email I was receiving as a digital marketer to know these laws are coming
into effect. How it's going to impact our strategy? What we need to start
thinking about to do the targeting with potentially less information. It is so
important when you're reaching out to email people to be relevant and to not
think of it. As a
hey, I'm going to poke you until you finally react. You don't want to know
what the reaction is. It could be an unsubscribe and, unfortunately, all
over Linton people are saying this is the year. This is the time of year to
unsubscribe, because people are just so frustrated with email practices. Yea It
overwhelmed. Oh, I mean it's so much I mean so much. I get hundreds of emails
every day right now, just about getting corporately, giving financially or
buying something- and I know those marketers don't want to do that. I know
they're just doing what they're being told to do, but it's going to kill
their list. It's going to make sending harder for them in the future and as
people disengage on subscribe or even just leader or put in, I pam they're,
harming their IP addresses. It makes that email marketers job that much
harder to be officially the following are well, and I also have found there
was a period of time for well, probably a couple of years for myself personally,
where I would you know personally, click on the unsubscribe actually go to
unsubscribe, and but so many times I had found in that process of trying to
unsubscribe it wouldn't just like unsubscribe be instantly. I would have
to enter my email address and because I have so many email addresses at my
work, I don't. I then have to go back to the email dress check, which one did
they actually send to copy that go back to the web page pace that in and then
it asks a bunch of questions. Why are you on subscribe, so it became it has
become so onerous in time consuming to unsubscribe, even though it's only a
few seconds but to your point when you've got hundreds of emails coming in
in the course of the day I have found- and I have heard others are doing the
same- that I'm just finding that I'm just blocking and I'm just blocking the
center, and so you know I'm not even UN subscribing anymore and so to your
point. That's another way that I think, unfortunately, marketers are killing.
Their lists is they're, just not even finding out whether that is being seen
as being read or not, depending on the system that they're using, but I'm just
finding that I don't want to go through the pain of the uncertainty of
unsubscribe, because I have the certainty of blocking and I'm just
going to block this ender and that's a more certain approach for me than the
uncertain approach of unsubscribe. So what you're experiencing is somebody
solving a problem, but not the root of the problem. The root of the problem is
the strategy execution of the email. What people are afraid of is to lose
their whole list, so they've now made it more
comprehensive to say and if not comprehensive, the pain in the ass to
say. Okay, I don't want to hear about newsletters or I don't want to hear
products updates where I don't want to hear about this thing over year on the
left- and yes here is my email address, because they
don't have a thought out strategy in the beginning about what they really
want to put in the email channel. It is, they want to do email and they want to
send things out and they want to reaction from people, because it's
again the most instant
channel you can use for marketing it's again, not as intrusive as a phone call,
or now I'm seeing more texts, which is something but an email coming to you,
you're, going to get an immediate reaction to did somebody engage with
that and they got to our website and they immediately took the action we
asked them to take, and you see that quickly. So as a strategically from an
organizational standpoint, they want somebody to engage they're, not
thinking about the customers or not thinking about where their customer
might be everyone's everywhere, even if we do fit in the same personas. Our
journeys in our jobs or our personal lives might be at different points.
Like I, from a personal point, I might be putting my kids to sleep while a
person, my same age group might be sitting down watching TV and would be
welcome or had free time, and they are welcome to read that email. All three
of us have these different scenarios were not you're not going to get the
same reaction from all of us. So you know, and some people I like to think
of the email channel now is A. I will come back to you when I'm ready, so
don't think to do a reopen. That's another thing: People do we anosin
people didn't open five days from now with the same message: Wait, calm down,
there's a lot of things. People are doing right now, if they're. If that
message resonated, we will come back to it and we will look it over. There's
plenty emails. I go back to two weeks later that I go back into order from
something. So you know you can't assume people are just going to be like Oh
yeah instancies and were we're humans. We have a lot on our plates. You can
expect this all to be instant, and I know that's how organizations are meant
they meant to grow or grow, but it will come and it will come in time and if
your patience and there's a good experience that the great experiences
are going to be where your customers are going to love it they're going to
tell people about it, they're going to tell people to sign up for it and it's
going to spread like wild fire. I mean Peleton's a great example of that like
four or five years ago, my sister in law got a Palatine and she got it
because a friend had of Helton and then I kept hearing about it in the office
everyone's getting these Palatins. So all of a sudden, this thing spreading
like wildfire. Everyone loves it everyone's still writing their Peleton,
even if they've had it for four years, they're still on the Peleton. So that's
again a great experience and it's going to just build, build, build and grow
Goro, and then you know they did excellent with what happened with
pandemic so again focus on the customer focus on the customer experience. Don't
just like inundate them with stuff there, they will advocate for you and
they will help you grow, especially if you give them a good customer
experience. Well- and I know that speaking of customer experience, I know
on twitter that you've mentioned that you know your own stance, that
marketing operation should sort of live in a customer experience department.
Can you build on that a little bit more for our audience, I mean all of us in
that organization should be customer focus like I love the book, purple cow
from Seth Good and like that was like one of my favorite books to read and
I've gotten to experience one of them. Stew, Leonards, is not far from me and
it's a very interesting supermarket. You go through it. It's not straight
aisles, it's like almost an adventure and they have all these adamatism, so
your kids could be entertained and they sing a d and do these things. So you
know when you're, focusing on the customer creating a really good and
unique experience. Why not elevee your email channels and your gigia channels
the same way like you should be thinking about it? All the way from top
to bottom, because you know they're going to love you they're, going to
love your brand they're going to want to keep you in business they're going
to want to share it with their friends. Give them a reason to don't use your
email channel to then just think of email, channel instant, like think of
it as a great touch point, it's a way that not only could they engage with it,
they can forward your email to other people say like look at this cool thing
that I purchased or look at this cool thing. I want for the holidays or you
should get for the holidays like it should be thought of with as
comprehensively as you can, because those companies that think like that
that are so down to the customer, the customer experience they do really well,
they really do many people talk about him. Another example I have is actually
my children's dentist there's this woman, Dr Penney, and when you walk
into her office, it's like a scuba cage and each dental room. Hijas room is
themed, so there is a safari room and then there's a submarine room and they
make it so not scary to go to a dentist when you're little she gives out
sunglasses. So when you're sitting there with the light in your face,
you're, not blinded by it, my kids love going to the Dedes at every time. I go
there, I'm like she just got it. She understood the core problem with you
know bringing your child to the dences. It's terrifying! It's sterile! It's
just like! I don't want to go to the dentist. Why am I going to go this and
these people scraping things and all this now she made it fun. She likes
she's hard to get into, because everyone in this area loves going there
and she's delivering a great service. Is that, like she put all the stuff out,
no she's really also concerned about their hygiene and their teeth and
making sure that they are fine. She put additional protocols in for adoring
coved. So it's amazing when you get to experience that it's amazing when you
get to see somebody that thought about what can make me different. What is the
reason why people have this association with my area? How can I share that I'm
different and she did it. I'm like this woman's a dentist, not really a
marketer, but she got it. She got it and she got a great. Oh, that's an
excellent example. Thank you for sharing that so Daniel before we wrap
up today's episode, when you think about the skills to create that kind of
creative experience that you just mentioned, can you just describe you
know sort of the top traits that you look for when you're hiring and
bringing on new marketing operations team members, so
one first and foremost, is intellectually Caricuri US I need
somebody, that's always going to want to ask why get down to that root of the
problem like we spoke about earlier with the unsubscribed centers, it's not
the root of the problem. What make successful people an marking oppsit to
keep driving to find out? What is the problem? Why is this not working? Why
are we seeing these things? Let's get down to that core issue and fix it
right? We want to make it wor work. We want to have success in organization,
diversity of thought, hugely important. We need to have people that have not
done the same thing over and over again, this area is changing every day. What
we do, how we execute, what we're allowed to use the data accessibility,
data laws. All of that is changing every day, so coming in and saying here
is my playbook. The playbook could be out the winow tomorrow, so being able
to come in with new ideas, different experiences, potentially different
industries, because you'll never know what the other person might be doing
over there, and that might be the reason that might be the key to success
for you. That could be the reason why you fixed the problem that you were
having before so and team players, people that are really willing to work
together. You're marking up it's not a very glorious division to be it. You
know you're the back the back end, guys so being the team players willing to
work with everyone and being excited to work with everybody very empathetic
people. I like working with people who are willing to you, know think about it
at others,
because again we're marketing we're consumer focus. We should be thinking
about what is resonating with those people. Messages are not meant that
we're working on for US, specifically they're meant for our customer base.
Are we even in that profile, sometimes not so trying to always sit in the
other person's shoes is really important, and probably the last thing
I think about is just excitement and eagerness for this area to learn it to
learn more to try more everyone. I've ever worked with WHO's been successful
in this area is: has that fearlessness to just dive in and learn from the
problem? Be a learner, go out and figure it out and also not be afraid of
just keeping within your own little community Lindon has been one of the
best things that has come around, because you can raise a hand and reach
out to somebody. You don't know and say hey, I want to know- or I saw you post
about this- could you meet with me for a little bit to just talk about how you
overcame this or obviously in the same problem? What type of tools have you
looked into, or any of that? So I mean you: have this great network out there
between Lindon there's, even slack channels for marking operational for
professionals and they're? Usually I found myself on a lot of our peers
willing to chat willing to share like work so excited to help somebody else
out. It's such a fun area to be in so those are. Those are some of the key
traits. I look for when I'm hiring excellent well that wraps up this
episode of the art of marketing operations. Thank you so much for
joining us today, Danielle and until next time stay safe, take care and
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