Welcome to the art of marketing operations, a Taylor podcast: here you
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Welcome to the art of marketing operations, podcast brought to you by
Taylor Corporation, I'm Glenbogie, and today my guest is Catland Foli, who is
the marketing operations manager at Tilio, a company which enhances
customer relationships by uniting communications across the enterprise
thanks for joining me today, Kaitlin thanks for having me going, I'm so
happy to be here awesome. Now before we get started, I learned from your linked
in profile that you are proud to call yourself a mourning person. I am too.
Would you tell us a little bit more about what that is? Yeah? No, I love to
I feel, like I waste the day. If I get up, you know later than seventy eight
and then it's just you get so much done early when the world is quiet, it gives
you a minute to center yourself center. The Day get focused kind of get
everything done before the rest of the world demands your time. So true, so
true, that's terrific Bocalin! I'm super excited to chat with you today
about marketing strategy and execution, with particular focus on marketing
operations. Now can you share with our audience? How do you describe marketing
operations generally from an industry perspective? So if you were to ask my
father what I do he tells everyone I work in social media, so I might not be
the mast way to describe this, but what marketing operations to me is the
orchestration of your entire marketing text deck. So all the data coming in.
Where does it go? How is it treated and then funneling it to the right next
step, so, whether that's a fellow from sales or whether it's a nurture stream
through one of our systems? I think all of the orchestrations, all the nuts and
bolts in the plugging in that is that's marketing operations. And what have you
found to be in those in those tasks and activities that you just mentioned?
What have you found to be the areas that are the most fun? The most
interesting, and also those that are the most challenging yeah, so I think
the exciting and the fun part- and I think, most marketing ops folks, are
going to answer this the same way, but it's in the challenge. It's in the
puzzle, it's in learning about some new regulation. That's come through and you
have to piece together all of the different data compliance into that. I
think the fun part is in the challenge. I love to get into where to understand
how people are thinking, and I love to
be able to put data points that or seek out the data that would allow us to
learn what would make someone took. What would make someone take the next
step, and that to me is like love. It could do it all day every day, but I do
think I like it because it's hard it's very challenging to do it correctly and
to do it in a way that is not like creepy or big brother. So yeah, that's
what I think I like that's excellent, that's wonderful! I love the challenge
and I love how you phrase that that it's about the puzzle, I love that I
think that's fantastic, and so you know in with the marketing operations,
really seems to be with the people that we have talked to it's very much. The
individuals that migrate towards the marketing operations function within
the larger sphere of marketing that they really have both that kind of
right, brain left brain you know, sort of type of individual where they want
to put creativity into their work, but they also see and dive into the
analytics, and you know how to optimize and maximum efficiency, etc. So how
have you seen the marketing operations? Discipline Change over the last few
years? So when I first got into marketing operations, it was probably
six or seven years ago, and at that point it was all about volume like get
these campaigns out the door. We don't really care about being smart about it.
I think nurtures were a thing, but they were a big thing and thinking of the
whole customer experience was still a very new idea. It wasn't something that
folks really focused on or cared about too much they just they had numbers
they had to hit, and they they were adamant that it was fine to do whatever
we had to do. They hit those numbers, I think now from like a thand twenty one
view point: Everything is
what is the right next step for our customers or our leads? How do we treat
them correctly so that they have a wonderful experience with us from the
moment they fell out of form until like they are ten years down the road using
our product, and it is having your eye on that. The whole time that, I think
is that's been the big swing for me. It's no longer like get it all out the
door. I don't care break a law if you have to it's now, like, let's fellow
all the girls and be very sistant and very like our campaign. Volumes they've
gone they're, much more granular, because we are looking at those tiny
little behaviors that indicate okay, they're ready for this path, maybe not
that path, yeah exactly and then in that process. In that shift that you've
seen how have your metrics changed in terms of, I would imagine, as you
stated you know a few years ago, the metrics that you had actually used to
actually measure the efficacy of a campaign measure, the efficacy of
marketing efforts, etc. They were different, metrics back then than what
they probably are today. How have you seen the metric in the measurement
shift as well? I think this is a perfect question for the landscape
today. So when I first started and then when I really when I first started
doing email campain was actually probably closer to ten years ago and
the focus there was open rates and I remember we had our sales team. They
were coming through these emails and looking at like so and so open this
email ten times they must be very interested, let's call them, and that
was. It was like a very manual thing that they were doing and they were just
like obsessively thinking about the open rates now fast forward to two
thousand and twenty one again open rates. We can't really care about them
anymore. It's not like apple killed that with their latest update, so it's
not even on the radar, it's a very useless measurement right now, and so
now what folks are looking at is retention. How long can we get these
folks to stay with US customer lifetime value, and I think, like ten year, I
think the longer we can keep our customers the better. So I think that's
really what the metric went from from something very vain in like someone
like just opening an email, I got. Oh, my God, there must love me to again
it's just that focus to the customer.
I love that they opened my email. They must love me. It's like! Oh, my gosh,
that's fantastic! Now, let's build on what you were just saying about
customer lifetime value, because what, when I hear that, of course, I think,
loyalty, I think long term, I think longer term relationships with
customers, etc. So, as you take a look at sort of the long term about the
marketing operations function overall, so you talked a little bit about you
know a few years ago how things were changed, particularly right now in two
thousand and twenty one. So when you look forward into the future, what do
you think the future holds for the marketing operations function? Overall,
I think you're going to see a big shift in how these departments are run. So
today, they're still pretty scrappy, you don't have big marking, OPS teams.
You have maybe five to ten folks at a at a large company. I think you're
going to see that triple and I think what you will see is that they will
start to splinter inside of that and become a
really giant department, because we'll have data engineering. I think you're
going to see a lot more data engineering, folks and marketing
operations, so they're going to be finding all the data from all the
different systems to plug it into. You know the systems that marketing and
sales are using and then you're going to have the marketing ops folks, who
will be
very much focused on the text ack, so keeping it healthy, keeping it running,
keeping it compliant, making sure that it is functional day in and day out,
the whole stack and then I think you're going to see a campaign, ops branch so
they're, the ones building working with the marketers enabling the marketers to
ensure all of their digital campaigns get out the door. So I think you're
going to see a very big split between
very big growing departments. I think it's going to boom. I really do. I
would agree with that. I think that's great, and then you know if there was
one area in that you talked about data engineering. You talked about campaigns,
probably several other splinters. That would be there moving forward to if you
could transform something right now today about the marketing operation
function itself. What would you change, and maybe this is a call out to MARTE
stack vendors? It could be a call out to marketing teams. You know what would
be your thought if you could wave the magic on what would you change we're in
Q for Right now? So this is a great time to say this. If you were thinking
about your strategy for two thousand and twenty two, two thousand and twenty
three and you don't have marketing ups at the table, you aren't thinking about
your strategy. Marketing OPS needs to have a seat at the table, every time
marketing strategies discussed, because this department is the one that knows
the data and knows what is available and knows what we are currently set up
to function to do, and it also has a very good vision as to if you want to
get to this point. You are going to need to o do these things with these
tools that we have or we need to go for cure. So if they don't have see the
table that please change that right now. I
think companies are starting to catch on to that. But it's still a very new
thought. It I think marketing ups gets very stuck into like they're the doers
they'll get the thing done that I ask them to do, but that needs to change
and that's to be more strategy and doing love that excellent feedback and
so and here's a provocative question for you is that so based on what you
were just describing about the change you know, what would you say is a
commonly held belief about marketing operations that you personally
passionately disagree with. I think it was so gen keps said that she runs
women of email and it is that marketers are not stetchas and our tests are dumb,
and I think that applies to marketing apps as well, because really what she's
saying there is if we are continuously focused on best practices, which say
you have to test all of the things to find out what small. Like nuance, your
group has M, really you're missing the mark and you specifically with
marketing ups. I think we do tend to rely too much on best practices, so we
should be follow your good a little bit more. Like you know your data, you know
your customers, you know how to read the date and you know how to be
creative about it. So one solution that works on someone who wrote an article
about the ten best things you should be doing probably won't work Free Yours,
every company I've worked at has a totally different marketing stack. They
have a totally different customer base and you can't treat them the same way.
So don't listen to the best practices. Don't run a million test. Just follow
your guts, see what happens in a just. I think that's that's the way to really
grow in the world to yeah. I love that that's great feedback, and then we
think about the our audience. Our audience is very, very much interested
in obviously the marketing operations rolled today and so for the members of
our audience that are in marketing operations. Today, when you think about
their challenges and as you just stated, you know, focus on you know just test
here or just do this fall your gut etc. Are there other things that you would
recommend how they could build their team? You know expand. Get that seat at
the table, as you say, as you described earlier, especially if they don't have
that seat at the table today. So one way to do it and it's a way that it
rufles feathers, but it gets the job done so marketing. UPS, like I think
I've mentioned their doers a lot of the time. They say yes, a lot. They want to
see their internal state holders happy, but in reality, if you want that seat
at the table, it's fine to say no say no explain. Why point to the reasons
why I point to the data point of the facts and people's ears will start
perking up, they might not love the fact. You aren't saying yes, but they
will start listening, and I think another thing too is with marketing
outs. We all do we love to be experts, we'd love, to hang our hats on the
facts that were experts in certain technologies or certain systems, but
the opposite of that is then we can also become almost like. We won't. We
won't ask the questions, because, if we're the experts, we shouldn't have
questions, and I think, put that ego out the door and a lot of the time the
value bring into a meeting with something you might not understand.
Perfectly is your viewpoint with your questions so speak up and own your
questions don't be afraid that it's not going to make you look like the expert
or, like you, don't know what you're talking about just speak up and say: No,
if you have to this great advice, one of the lessons I learned long time ago
was: Nobody has a monopoly on knowledge
and so to your point, sometimes the most powerful thing that you can do is
ask the question. So I love that about how you phrase that, because I think to
your point, we can bring all the data to the table all day long, but you know
back to the whole reliability of validity. You know sort of target. You
know that having that day, that may not necessarily be what we need at that. At
that moment, have you found that in your own career, as you've continued to
grow in the marketing operations, discipline that you found that
sometimes that powerful question just at that right time really actually
opens up a whole new opportunity to explore something with your effort? Yes
a thousand times, and it is oftentimes much more powerful than the data,
because when you start talking systems and data flow and architecture, it goes
over a lot of people's heads, so you have to
if you're presenting at a meeting or you're at you find yourself at the
table. Your questions are often what people will remember much more than the
data flow that you're showing them or some random number. So I think
questions can be extremely powerful. Absolutely love that, and so let's talk
about the marketing operations, the team itself, when you think about how
you've built your team, others that you work with and others in the field of
marketing operations. How do you look at the skill sets traits that employees
other team members? What are the trades that you look for to make sure that
you're going to surround yourself with the best marketing operations
executives that you can the number one thing every single time is curiosity
and passion. So if they have those two things, I am immediately much more
prone to say: okay, they'll be a very good fit for marketing. UPS, I'm not as
concerned with. Do you have tons of college exper tons of college degrees,
or do you have tons of years of experience more so than are you excited
by the premise of that this idea? Do you find yourself looking up different
podcast or different white papers? In Your Spirit, time like when you have
down time, are you trying to learn something if that, if they say yes to
those things and they're very visibly, usually very physically enthusiastic?
Those are all Greens lags. Those are all like hat yes, they're. Definitely,
a good marketing up six. You can teach the system, you can teach how
everything works together. You can't teach the intuition or the passion or
the curiosity. Those are much more difficult to come by yeah those softer
skills. You know, especially as your point, you know it's someone taught me
a long time ago. There's it's like a bicycle. There's the back wheel in the
front. We have the back, we all drives it's the technical knowledge, it's the
things that can propel you, but is those front wheel, skills that steer
you along the way it steers you to understand the customer tours you to
understand. Why is this working versus? Conversely? Why is this not working and
so yeah? I love. I love how you describe that. I think that's fantastic
and Gatling from your perspective, before we wrap up today's episode. What
would you say is for our audience? What would you say is the main takeaway that
you want to leave our audience with in understanding the challenges facing
marketing operations executives today, I think the challenges the number one
challenge, leaving two thousand and twenty one into probably the next few
years here is privacy, and I know it's not the fun exciting challenge that
everyone wants to hear about, but we need to be very proactive right now
with the different privacy laws that are coming up. The retirement of the
third party cookie make sure your text, ECK, is ready. Make sure you have
contingency plans in place, make sure that your marketing department
understands so you know, put together something that can be relatable to your
marketing department about how these changes will be impacting them and then
be ready, for it make sure that you've got a contingency plan in place. Really,
I think it's going to hit the industry very hard and privacy is in the
forefront of a lot of consumers. Mind so doing it right will go a long way.
Excellent feedback. Well. Thank you so much for joining us today, Catland and
that wraps up this episode of the art of marketing operations until next time
stay safe, take care and thank you for listening thanks.
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